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Post by trappnman on Dec 13, 2014 6:44:46 GMT -6
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 13, 2014 6:56:21 GMT -6
facts are facts and the facts are water boarding got the answers we needed when we needed them, I want to hide nothing at all, neither do the people of is country, they do want to free! Hence why they responded to the poll in the manner they did.
off topic I think not, it is the actions of terrorist that demanding the course nothing else. They had the choice to eithe release that information in a truthful manner or we will extract it from you. Simple really.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 13, 2014 7:19:14 GMT -6
truthful? point to ONE instance where such truthful info, led to saving lives?
you need to watch McCains speech to Congress- see what a real Hawk has to say about tiorture
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 13, 2014 7:27:38 GMT -6
Tman Panetta went on meet the press and said on more than one occasion that torture methods revealed some information that lead to Osama bin laden's demise. having him gone keeps Our people safe. That was in Feb 2013. Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said that some of the information that was used to locate and kill Osama bin Laden was attained using torture. The admission comes after months of speculation about the role that waterboarding plays in CIA interrogations following its graphic depiction in the Oscar-nominated film Zero Dark Thirty. 'In order to put the puzzle of intelligence together that led us to Bin Laden, there were a lot of pieces out there that were a part of that puzzle. Yes, some of it came from some of the tactics that were used at that time, interrogation tactics that were used,’ Panetta said Sunday during an appearance on Meet The Press. Read more: www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2272860/Defense-Secretary-Panetta-admits-CIA-used-information-waterboarding-capture-Osama-Bin-Laden.html#ixzz3Lmg7oc8T Follow us: @mailonline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
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Post by trappnman on Dec 13, 2014 7:34:11 GMT -6
panetta is trying to save his arse-
all reports show bin ladens death had nothing to do with the torture
in fact, the report states no lives or any pertinent info was gained by the torture
but that's not the point- the point is if we do what the bad guys do- we ARE the bad guys- its why years ago the United States led the charge to sign a treaty stating that NO CIRCUMSTANCES were good enough to use torture-
just another example of do what we say, not what we do
since I know you won't look up McCains speech last week, I'll do it for you
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Post by trappnman on Dec 13, 2014 7:37:31 GMT -6
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 13, 2014 11:40:47 GMT -6
So Panetta lied multiple times ? Where was the White House to shut him down on each lie? Head of CIA and Pentagon ...........
To be quite frank the only people who really know what came of after boarding are those doing such and those using the information gained..........
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Post by trappnman on Dec 13, 2014 13:53:09 GMT -6
and from those sources, came the report
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Post by bblwi on Dec 13, 2014 14:51:27 GMT -6
So with new facts or data the shifting takes place? Now it is the fault of others that lie and no blame or responsibility for those that state that it was worthwhile and honorable? Those who change their principles depending on who they talk with or communicate with have few principles at all in my book. We may have gained valuable information but according to rules of war if we broke the law and did criminal acts then no matter how we might feel about those persons or acts they should be prosecuted as any other indicted person(s).
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 13, 2014 18:11:01 GMT -6
Love the words law when it comes to war. How many laws did we break when we took out bin laden? Think that was all on the up and up? Nothing but politics being played. I am all for water boarding if it helps us sorry just the way I feel. If it where my friends or family in one of the towers on 9/11 or many other attacks on us, I would want every rock,unturned to get the people that did that, water boarding could really care less. Bottom line, he is gone and another example set to those that try to do us harm.
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Post by James on Dec 13, 2014 22:07:13 GMT -6
Even if you could prove that some reliable, useful info was obtained by the torture, you have one insurmountable hurdle: you can't show that the same info couldn't have been obtained by lawful and moral methods.
I spent most of my life working on cases where I got to practice interrogating hostile witnesses. Torture was not one of the tools at my disposal; I had to out-think them. In most cases it worked; I was able to get what info I needed. There are many legitimate interrogation methods, including tricking them, out-maneuvering them. The people that these methods don't work on are the same people who would lie to you, or tell you what you want to hear, under torture.
Under international law, water-boarding is clearly one of the definitions of torture. We've promised under these treaties to prosecute any of our citizens who engage in such methods. Now we're welshing on the deal. We prosecuted Japanese and German people who water-boarded our POWs, and now want to say that we, the mighty US, a shining example to the world, are above the law. Shame on us. History will judge us harshly for these evil deeds.
Jim
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 14, 2014 6:10:14 GMT -6
James so you think we water boarded people , just to water board people? You think our military and other op's people do not know how to use interrogation techniques? You could have offered your services to be flown to various locations and tried your hand at interrogation on foreign people inside of a sect and who are not under any path to tell the truth and see if you could have done better prior to water boarding . I know some of my friends are in various forms of law enforcement many go to seminars on integration techniques and well a few are darn good at it, again far different than what we where dealing with overseas. I don't feel terrorist orgs care either way what we did to their cronies, they just want to see us all dead................. You think going forward that water boarding changes the minds of people we will or might be at war with in the future? I sure don't. Also another point you think the other terrorist plots in other countries, our intel helped to stop has any ill will with our allies, thanks for keeping 100's or 1,000's of our people safe but I just hope water boarding didn't lead you to this intel? Really? Politics is at play on this matter has been and will be , that is the viscous circle of our country. Not right or wrong but what gain can there be from this info and who lied and what time should we release this hidden info. Every thought or move made is done with politics in the fore front period.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 15, 2014 8:35:09 GMT -6
from article Two, of the UN convention on torture- a document written 99% by the United States, and pushed towards passage in the UN states: 2.No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. again, listen to McCains speech on why this is important to us here is the entire document- www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.htmlpolitics? sorry no-
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 17, 2014 5:58:29 GMT -6
This was a Feinstein led deal, politics yes. Pelosi lying to save grace on the subject as well.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 17, 2014 9:21:46 GMT -6
so you are a sweep in under the rug kind of guy?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 17, 2014 19:14:21 GMT -6
Not at all Tman if we hold account some then we do it to all. Nancy P stated she never knew what water boarding was, a clear lie no doubt. The CIA director had said he was in multiple meetings where she was there and asked questions about such. Do we condone lying of our politicians ? or is this just a witch hunt and to use tatics to smear those who are about to take control in congress? Hum?
You see I am on the record here stating water boarding is not torture and was enacted by our govt. If it gets information I am all for it. To say it doesn't do anything is well less than factual or why would we waste anytime on it? just so we can water board people and get useless information? really? I have a very hard time believing the best military in the world and the minds in charge would do things that are counter productive to what they are trying to achieve in a timely manner sorry............
Politics clearly is involved to think otherwise is well naive IMO.
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Post by James on Dec 17, 2014 21:37:31 GMT -6
Waterboarding not torture? You gotta being kidding. We called it torture when the Japanese and Germans did it to our POW. It's considered torture under international law and the treaties we've signed.
I suppose it's okay with you if the enemy waterboards our own troops? Well, guess what: we've set the modern precedent, so we can't complain if an enemy does it to us.
Jim
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Post by PamIsMe on Dec 18, 2014 2:46:55 GMT -6
So if we ripped fingernails out, snipped off fingers or broke bones to get information instead of half drowning them multiple times, would that be considered torture? Remember that prison in Iraq where pictures were taken of laughing guards making prisoners strip naked and taking pictures of them in various disgusting positions? Sure seemed like torture to me.
Once we get to the point of changing attitudes to as to what is torture and what isn't, and even defending it, where do we draw the line? Or is there a line any more?
Pam
Pam
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 18, 2014 5:04:27 GMT -6
Pam, bringing out an obscure moment does not paint the entire picture.
Half drowning is like almost dead your one or the other, unless your heart stops or you are taking water in your lungs there is in no half's.
Torture to some is having a loved one killed in the twin towers or one of the aircraft that slammed into the pentagon or the ones that stood bravely to divert the plane in Pennsylvania. They lost lives, so again sorry but how many water boarders died? Torture to others is watching their sons or daughters go of to war because of some psychos that think killing some of us will have any impact on their cause, these brave mean and woman are their to protect our freedoms yet parents and loved ones still go through it when the call comes to go to war.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 18, 2014 7:50:44 GMT -6
dick Cheney Jr.
and its still bullshit-
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