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Post by RiverRat on Oct 1, 2010 21:32:32 GMT -6
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Oct 1, 2010 21:35:57 GMT -6
I guess I don't get the question from the fur video?
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Post by scott kimball on Oct 1, 2010 22:15:13 GMT -6
one hell of a way to push the sales up on traps......
Scott
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Post by RiverRat on Oct 1, 2010 22:20:23 GMT -6
I have noticed it when I run snares or footraps on trails vs bodytraps. I also have noticed it big time on water sets when running staked vs sliders , I also see it to a point when checking at 2 am vs 8 am. Ok I could be crazy or nuts been called worse but I know I anit the only one thats seen this Also tell me that a coyote yappin at ya dont slow down the catch ratio a good % of the time. I want them dead now when I get out of the truck for this reason. I dont call myself a coyote trapper but have done enough to know this or think I know this
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Post by mattduncan on Oct 2, 2010 4:52:21 GMT -6
i thought it was an interesting observation also and have seen it happen were things just go dead after the first coon and it looks like 100 coon were going down the trail
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Post by mustelameister on Oct 2, 2010 6:02:06 GMT -6
A pheromone (from Greek φέρω phero "to bear" + hormone from Greek ὁρμή - "impetus") is a secreted or excreted chemical factor that triggers a social response in members of the same species. Pheromones are chemicals capable of acting outside the body of the secreting individual to impact the behavior of the receiving individual.[1] There are alarm pheromones, food trail pheromones, sex pheromones, and many others that affect behavior or physiology. Their use among insects has been particularly well documented. In addition, some vertebrates and plants communicate by using pheromones.
There are three reasons why I run all drowners on my river line.
#1 - extended day check
#2 - this video explains it
#3 - the set is more or less intact
I don't believe it's vocal communication. I do believe it's pheromones.
Get that 'coon down the cable asap and you'll have less "warning scent" in the area.
Yea, I believe it.
Ol' Clint sure must have a lot of time on his hands with this website.
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Post by trappnman on Oct 2, 2010 7:44:37 GMT -6
glad you brought this to our attention mike, it is indeed an interesting thought-
a couple of things first- on coyotes, i think a coyote yapping in a trap, is going to increase coyote catches.
secondly- I saw this in otter as well- you get an otter on well used crossover, and it often went 100% dead, with the side, smaller trials now being used.
Is this because of pheromones or memory's? I often think that animals are UNDER rated a far as what they do. Buddy can never go to a certain point of cover, but if he does go there and kicks up a bunny- you can take him back weeks later, and he heads right to that point. I suspect in the otter it might be some type of pheromone mixed with observational memory's- but obviously I don't have a clue-
You certainly don't (or I don't) see this in canines- by and large, remake sets just get better with more remakes. And of all animals, coyotes should be or would be, the most in tune with any danger, etc pheromones.
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but to coon- I have observed that, but I've also not observed that.
on the no side- a couple of examples.
this year, had 2 220s in a trail, that were my most consistent sets. had them in place for 2 months, and they consistently gave me coon for 2 months. Even checked them deer hunting and paid for my lic, shells from the ones i got. not coon every night, but consistent.
have snared a couple areas, dead winter, where I snared coon after coon on the same trials, nightly.
And I have a lot of dirthole upland locations, that are consistent and productive not only for multiple weeks, but year after year.
and using live traps on ADC , i don;t see this at all- like last one, had 2 traps, caught 7 coon in 3 nights, that took care of coon at bird feeders.
also have farmers that have live traps set year round at the barns, and while not nightly, consistently 12 months a year they catch coon-
on the other hand, have definitely seen where big use/sign areas give me a few coon, then nothing and it does make you wonder.
I can rationalize it on my lines, or even his Iowa example a couple of ways-
3-4 big coon, working an area, makes it look like a LOT more coon are there- overestimation of animal numbers, is part of it for me.
coon move, a lot during peak trapping season. so some of those coon, are getting caught elsewhere, killed elsewhere, hunted elsewhere.
but none of that explains the cameras at the feeders.
a couple of thoughts-
he says hes still catching coon in dirtholes etc away from feeders- same coon?
ah- just got a thought- in my examples, I wasn't talking 6-9 coon present like clockwork seeing other coon in traps.
My areas were visited more a coon or so at a time- in the snaring, I have multiple snares- and 1 or 2 a check-
in land dirtholes, the same- 2-3 traps, seldom a double
so my thought on it, is thats its more a visual thing- that they avoid the areas where they saw a coon was restrained.
set back more in the brush with a good call lure, and I bet he would see a change- just like he said- hes still catching coon elsewhere-
next?
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Post by calvin on Oct 2, 2010 8:56:31 GMT -6
Interesting...I concur with his findings on many type sets. Talking home range resident coon...not travelers. I have caught a few on many occasions and it goes dead. I know there WERE many more there before and always just figured they moved on, got dead, or whatever... Not so sure now, and now thinking right along the lines of Clint on this one. Something I see on hard staked sets...not so much on drowners. Case in point: I had a few pockets sets (on drowners) that pretty much produced 2 coon every check last year for 9 checks (used two traps...and had a miss once or maybe twice). No alarms going off there as the coon was down and out. Same situation on dry land what would have been the total numbers? I just don't feel it would have been nearly as good compared to past sets and due to my past hard staked sets, only a few before the RESIDENT coon would have dried up. I simply knew there were more there before setting, then take two and gone. hmmmm.
Maybe its just a sight thing...dunno. I know I have locations over the years that produce coyotes. My dog (who rides in the front seat at times) knows about every location I have ever had a coyote pinned down. Ride past one of these sights and she is nose to the windshield looking for something in the trap any time of year. Some of the areas haven't had a trap on for years...she still remembers that location.
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Post by blackhammer on Oct 2, 2010 10:04:16 GMT -6
On 220s after a coon or two and then its dead the set may cool down so to speak be it scent or the coon's memory and after a few days ,a week or whatever your catching coon again.I'm more of the school the more animals you catch the location smells more causing animals to slow down and avoid the trap.Moving up or down the trail is a standard way of preening the set.Or even changing the trap.Other than that the only thing you could do on 220s is gang set heavy.I don't but should I be doing that? I don't see how a live animal scares the others from the set area.I guess I would have to see a bigger sample size than Locklear's to be convinced.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Oct 2, 2010 10:06:08 GMT -6
Yes Tman is dead on with coyotes nothing better than a coyote making nosie in a trap to bring in the others and if it is a pup all the better. That is how one gets doubles and triples on coyotes, remember when fur trapping many of those coyotes will be that seasons litter and the mates stay in close contact and will come to the sound of another and will work other sets iin the area provided you have more than 1 trap set on that location at that time.
When I nsared coons in Iowa I would gang set the locations like old abandoned houses and barns on one side of the road crops on the other the trails would get lined up with snares and come back the next day and have 4-6 coons not uncommon, as these places held those numbers, I tried to catch them in 1-2 checks and move on to other areas offering better takes.
I have also saw like tman areas I had foot traps and caught 6-9 coon over a period of 3 weeks from the same trap set, none shying away from a catch circle or the smells, I covered many up with urine to hide rusting traps could have helped but I know the coons kept getting caught along with occasional coyotes and fox at these sets. I have noticed the larger the catch circle the better for the most part. Hence another reason for longer chain.
I have told this before but I had a kill complaint at a ranch was august and I had "A" trap at a gate opening on a lane coyote tracks present, came back and had a mangy pup in this trap got out to dispatch it and reset and when I opened the truck door out on a knob 200 yards away sat the female coyote that pup made a sound and she went to warning barking like crazy, even though she saw the truck and me moving about, I had time to get the rifle range her and lay prone and shoot her, if I would have had another trap I have no doubt she would have been sitting in it as I'm sure she made the visit to that pup on a few occasions.
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Post by thebeav2 on Oct 2, 2010 18:51:00 GMT -6
If you can't dazzle them with brilliance you have to baffle them with BS
Come on guys we have all had coon walk over their fallen comrades to get Into your next trap. When the trail goes dead it's because you have killed all the local coon. If you stay long enough or come back after a few weeks you will start to pick up the travelers. I have had many trails where I have taken 10 or more coon In a very short time. A dead coon In body grip Is just that a DEAD COON and his brothers or sisters could care less. I have had as many as 5 coon lined up on the bank alive and struggling. I think this draws other coon or at least keeps them hanging around till they get caught. I like I said lots of BS out there.
there are frauds and Charlestons out there trying to part you from your money.
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Post by blackhammer on Oct 2, 2010 19:14:59 GMT -6
A coon getting caught in a conibear will make a ruckus that will scare them for a few minutes anyway I'm convinced.I've caught coon up to nine nites in a row in a conibear.But you don;t catch everyone and there will always be some refusals.The live coon thing probably BS.a trail can go dead with 220s and there are a few local coon around at times.It would makes sense a few coon could get spooked seeing all hell break loss when the coon in front of them gets whacked.
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Post by blackhammer on Oct 2, 2010 19:21:55 GMT -6
I will say for the most part on most animals I am surprised how efficiently I've trapped them down.For instance I like colony traps but felt I must be missing a fair amount of rats.Set 110 and footholds in these spots and guess what I had got most of them.The same with coon ,the locals can be trapped pretty efficiently with a number of good methods.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Oct 2, 2010 22:08:22 GMT -6
beav said what others think and know.................................
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Post by trappnman on Oct 3, 2010 7:29:12 GMT -6
hard to compare water and land-
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Post by thebeav2 on Oct 3, 2010 7:48:58 GMT -6
Blackhammer said.
A coon getting caught in a conibear will make a ruckus that will scare them for a few minutes anyway I'm convinced.I've caught coon up to nine nites in a row in a conibear.But you don;t catch everyone and there will always be some refusals.
That Is true to a point, that's why a DP or a PVC set with a foot hold will take those that refuse the Body grip. Those open trails that lend themselves to refusals always get a DP or a PVC set along with the body grip. Or I might just skip the Body grip and go with 2 or more baited sets. This type of system will knock down the local population In about 3 checks and eliminate about 95% of your refusals. Then It's off to new grounds.
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Post by Scott W. on Oct 3, 2010 8:23:22 GMT -6
Stress causes me to smell different. If I am doing a normal sweaty low stress job, I will smell one way. If I am cutting timber and the adrenalin is flowing, I will smell totally different.Just ask my wife! I think this may be happening with live coon in traps or snares. I don't know if coon sweat, but they certainly must have a way of exuding odor. Not like a skunk, but you get my drift. I think the coon gets more stressed as daybreak approaches. We've heard it said that horses can smell fear, maybe coon can too.
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Post by thebeav2 on Oct 3, 2010 9:06:50 GMT -6
That's true to a point. Most critters get a bit stressed when they are restrained. And I would assume get stressed during bad weather and the approach of daylight. How long dose that stress of being restrained last? I can see the Initial catch being very stressful, but how long dose that critter fight the trap? I like to let my live caught coon get back Into the culvert after being caught. I get very little foot damage this way. I'm sure the coon feels a lot more at ease when It can be holed up In that culvert. Now with about 80% of my body grip caught coon the trap Is still sitting on the stabilizer so that coon died on the spot. I don't see a dead body In that situation as causing the next coon to be spooked. Now a poorly caught body gripped coon that puts up some struggle may spook the next coon coming along but that coon would have to be right on It's heels. Even so the live coon gets a bit spooked but I eventuality moves around the dead one and gets back on the trail and gets caught In the next set. And If that set Is a baited set I bet that coon all of a sudden forgets about his dead buddy. But how many coon and fox and coyotes have you come up on caught In a trap that are all curled up taking a nap. Maybe not so much with canines but I've seen lots of coon curled up sleeping.
I think we all tend to give animals to many human attributes.
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Post by Scott W. on Oct 3, 2010 13:15:05 GMT -6
Seen coon sleeping many times. Seen multiple catches and repeats. Just would like to tip the odds more in my favor so I see more multiples and repeats! ;D I think you're right Beav. That instantly dead coon in a 220, or one that goes down the slide to cover or deep water don't stress as bad as other scenarios.
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Post by Wright Brothers on Oct 3, 2010 13:30:26 GMT -6
I always thought it was a fear gland secretion thing that causes some remakes to need cooling off, hence the saying, "I almost crapped myself". Been wanting to use more sliders in certain sets to try and preserve them, maybe this year.
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