Your thoughts ......

[humptulips]

Oct 2, 2010 7:44:37 GMT -6 trappnman said:

secondly- I saw this in otter as well- you get an otter on well used crossover, and it often went 100% dead, with the side, smaller trials now being used.

Is this because of pheromones or memory's? I often think that animals are UNDER rated a far as what they do. Buddy can never go to a certain point of cover, but if he does go there and kicks up a bunny- you can take him back weeks later, and he heads right to that point. I suspect in the otter it might be some type of pheromone mixed with observational memory's- but obviously I don't have a clue-

I won't comment on the coon or coyote but on the otter I'm sure it is strictly visual and memory. seen it too many times where like you said a crossover will go dead after a catch. Dryland crossovers are ready made for the other otters in the family to observe, learn and remember. The pheremone idea, well I've seen too many times where a crossover would go dead and stay dead right into next season. I just can't see scent lasting that long. Good example once on a favorite dryland trail caught a couple otters and it went dead. Returned a couple months after season during a snow to look it over. An otter had come through and detoured out into the brush around where the trap had been set months before. That otter had to have been remembering that that was a dangerous place. Seen other similar occurences in water sets, channels where the otter was in the water but the trap was partly out of the water. I just can't see pheremones playing a role where the otter was 100% in the water.

[blackhammer]

Oct 3, 2010 13:41:07 GMT -6 humptulips said:

Oct 2, 2010 7:44:37 GMT -6 trappnman said:

secondly- I saw this in otter as well- you get an otter on well used crossover, and it often went 100% dead, with the side, smaller trials now being used.

Is this because of pheromones or memory's? I often think that animals are UNDER rated a far as what they do. Buddy can never go to a certain point of cover, but if he does go there and kicks up a bunny- you can take him back weeks later, and he heads right to that point. I suspect in the otter it might be some type of pheromone mixed with observational memory's- but obviously I don't have a clue-

I won't comment on the coon or coyote but on the otter I'm sure it is strictly visual and memory. seen it too many times where like you said a crossover will go dead after a catch. Dryland crossovers are ready made for the other otters in the family to observe, learn and remember. The pheremone idea, well I've seen too many times where a crossover would go dead and stay dead right into next season. I just can't see scent lasting that long. Good example once on a favorite dryland trail caught a couple otters and it went dead. Returned a couple months after season during a snow to look it over. An otter had come through and detoured out into the brush around where the trap had been set months before. That otter had to have been remembering that that was a dangerous place. Seen other similar occurences in water sets, channels where the otter was in the water but the trap was partly out of the water. I just can't see pheremones playing a role where the otter was 100% in the water.

Great post,saw the exact thing last year on a group of otters.The snow told the story each time through.

[thebeav2]

BUT

Down In SC I found this ancient otter toilet. It was at least 2 feet high and about 4 feet across. The take out was 10 Inches deep and and was exactly 10" wide. I took 10 otter In 14 days out of that set. Most of the time the otter didn't get the 330 off the stabilizer so those otter were laying In the take out.
I have also taken what I would consider family groups In just a few days off the same cross over.
I normally set every cross over and every otter set and leave them for 60 days and NEVER move them till I head back home. My averages each and every year that I have trapped In SC were over 60 otter. With the last 4 years with averages In the low 80s.
Granted I had over a 200 traps out at all times and would be taking 300 to 400 beaver along with those otter.
I have just not seen where otter shy away from spots that had recently caught otter.
Not saying It doesn't happen but not from what I have witnessed.

[blackhammer]

I have only trapped a few otter but these particular otter got out of the channel and went around the spot their momma was caught.Maybe after some time they started swimming through there again.But they really went out of their way to avoid the set.They came through twice after the old female got nailed.I'll set the same spot probably this fall and am sure if an otter comes through I'll get em.But there is no doubt these otter were spooked.

[robertw]

Some people make a mountain out of a mole hill.

There are only TWO kinds of animals (applies to coyotes as well), those in the basck of the truck and those that we have to catch tomorrow. Most trappers just need to work a little harder (so they can tuck in their shirt!!) and quit over analizing the targeted animal.

[Gibb]

One trap one otter, three traps ?
Jim

[robertw]

Gibb;"three traps ?"

For some guys this would be to many animals to have to carry out

They only have two hands

[RiverRat]

I could trap for another 100 yrs all yr long doing adc and fur trap and still not know it all You can under estimate a critter just as easy as over estimating it.

[RiverRat]

I have to wonder if this info would be taken differently by some if a no-name trapper or other person would have came out with it

[blackhammer]

Oct 3, 2010 17:48:06 GMT -6 @robertw said:

Some people make a mountain out of a mole hill.

There are only TWO kinds of animals (applies to coyotes as well), those in the basck of the truck and those that we have to catch tomorrow. Most trappers just need to work a little harder (so they can tuck in their shirt!!) and quit over analizing the targeted animal.

Aw come on,over analyzing animals is fun.What the heck are we suppose to discuss on the internet.LOL Of course keep it simple stupid is a good philosophy.I work hard at trapping and really don't care if other trappers do or not.

[trappincoyotes39]

riverrat, do you mean like Ogorman? LOL.

[humptulips]

Beav,
Have you considered the number of otters using that fantastic toliet? It's possible to spook some otter that were in that family and still have a bunch roaming about that didn't see one get killed there. Sounds like a fantastic place.

[marbleyez2001]

Otter...I have never seen it, but rarely set an otter trap in the snow. For a few close friends that do around here they have observed the same avoidance others have been talking about. Move the trap 6', and dead otter awaits you!

[Gibb]

Depending on what you are trying to do I guess. Why would you set one otter trap at a time if you know that they travel in family groups?
Nothing like having a triple on otter. If your goal is to catch every otter going pass you have to set enough traps to do the job.
I have learned the hard way that you can over harvest
Because of our registered trapline system here in Ontario once I catch 3 at a site I pull. Otter are long living and slow to reproduce. You can if you want catch everyone at on a watershed.
Jim

[marbleyez2001]

Oct 4, 2010 3:31:30 GMT -6 Gibb said:

Depending on what you are trying to do I guess. Why would you set one otter trap at a time if you know that they travel in family groups?
Nothing like having a triple on otter. If your goal is to catch every otter going pass you have to set enough traps to do the job.
I have learned the hard way that you can over harvest
Because of our registered trapline system here in Ontario once I catch 3 at a site I pull. Otter are long living and slow to reproduce. You can if you want catch everyone at on a watershed.
Jim

If this was in reference to my post, these guys are not setting just 1 trap, but normally setting 4 or so traps to a spot. Certian times they have caught say 2 otters in these traps and the otters will avoid the remaining traps like the plaugue, and it is written in snow. Many time not avoiding the micro location where the trap is set, but going around the area where the traps are set. Avoiding areas of small streams and crossovers after otter have been caught.

Some of us do not have the luxury of taking all the otter we want....but have to abide by the law of 4 otters.

[thebeav2]

The beauty of SC Is that there are no limits and no trappers.
I suppose I could be missing some due to previous catches. But with out the benefit of snow there would be no way of telling.
But with the numbers I put up I don't think I'm missing many.
Gibb after I caught those otter off that toilet I NEVER caught another otter at that location. And I have gone back there for about 4 years to that location and It's dead. And I have never seen a location like that anywhere else In all my travels.

[wheelie]

I didn't view the link or read much posted (just skimmed).

A coyote yappin in a trap doesn't draw more in, cause they are already running together in my parts. The only time it may help is in Jan. when mating up.
Most pups are still hanging with mom & dad for the most part in the home range boarders until that time.
So, when I pull up with the truck and a yote starts to give its danger bark its the last thing I want to hear. The yotes associate the trcuk the trap area that I remade and the removal of that bro, mom, or sister as a bad thing I would imagine. But, that set is a magnet for the others as they investigate the next night, day, hr, etc.
That is where set 2, 3 or 4 hits if they didn't all connect the first night and in the old catch circle from night before is a pissed off alfa, or bumbed out bro ready to tare you up.

[trappnman]

beav- I think also you just had a great otter population. that could work 2 ways- with that many otter, there is going to be more "commotion" in the territory- meaning otter coming by often and regular.

but here, in the study period, we had a small population (we averaged 1 otter every 6 days per trapper) and the effect was quite noticible. In 3 years, another trapper had one doubel, the rest all singletons even though all locations were gang set.

[trappincoyotes39]

wheelie is it a good thing or a bad thing then? You have plenty of drifters and also not all litter mates are neck and neck together all the time, and various other factors that a live coyote will add to the location and make mutiple catches provided you have multiple traps there in the first place.

Here just the sight of a truck is bad news but they don't move out of the area because of it or will they on a warning bark, they will/can slow down action, the beauty of a 2-3 day check in heavy pressure areas, the truck isn't there every day and the live decoy adds to it all

Plus the amount of coyotes I have that are vocal in a trap are very low to begin with, if the sight and sounds of a coyote in a trap are a negative then how does anyone every make double and triple catches in the first place? They don't all get caught at the same time. Milling effect and other factors can make it a good thing for sure.

[humptulips]

It's all well and good to talk about gang setting for otter and I do but often times I'll catch the first otter in the first set. The others see it and turn tail. They never get to that second, third or fourth set. Some places gang setting works but on a one lane highway the first trap is the only one that gets action. Just depends on the lay of the land.
I've had doubles on big male otter on a crossover trail close together. I'm thinking they didn't see the other guy get whacked and without actually seeing the trap fire it didn't sink in what the danger was.