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Post by shagnasty on Nov 16, 2006 20:52:25 GMT -6
cd, i have no way to prove it other than empty traps and no sign, zilch, nada, zero, none. there are some big properties i trap that have no canines at all, zero. i can only assume disease is the problem, no way hunting or trapping pressure would kill them all. i belive some areas here have big gray fox die offs, because they are in pockets even though terrain and habitat is the same basically. jim v has seen it and we could only assume disease killed everything, no nothing, just barren land. serious!
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Post by Jeffrey on Nov 17, 2006 10:47:10 GMT -6
Another thought that may enter the equation would be prey numbers. If there is plenty of prey they may live fairly conflict free, but as prey species decline, more conflicts between the fox and coyote will occur. I also believe that once the coyote reaches the land carrying capacity the fox numbers will plummet in limited cover areas as in farm land. The fox probably have a better chance in big timber than in open areas.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 17, 2006 10:59:46 GMT -6
jeffry, I`ve noticed the fox do hang on longer in big timber, but still at very low numbers relative to say any area that is coyote free. basically the short version of my thoughts on ricks and mike springs type ground. it appears they have very little row crop ground that is naked dirt 8 months of the year. southern indiana is very similar to ricks and springs type ground, and it has basically no fox at all left. Irrigardless of spring saying he has had coyotes for 29 years now and yet still has foxes, I think his time will come. with that poorer non row crop ground I notice human houses are a lot closer togather too, little 40 acre tracts similar to amish type ground- condusive to succesful litter raising under widow womens houses type thing. they`ve just hung on longer there due to more cover and sod. it will happen. I know rick and spring talk about a dozen fox and 6 coyotes ( or whatever) from the same location. but we all know that is not the norm there or anywhere else either. rick and mike, just for discussion, how many of each critter ( reds vs coyotes) are knocking down each fall on what level of effort over how many square miles of CONTINUOUS ground- not one super spot that is not representative. I have my 24 coyote pig dump too, but it`s the only one on my whole 200 mile loop. the rest are toughys . and that pig dump. pushing 100 coyotes off it over the years now, and nary a red fox, or a grey either.
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csiwildlife
Tenderfoot...
people protect what they value
Posts: 8
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Post by csiwildlife on Nov 17, 2006 11:15:18 GMT -6
A lot of hot wind Mr. Wendt , and no sound proof other than your say so. I have a four year degree in biology from Purdue University, and you, sorry it does not take a degree to BS. I have also been k9 trapping for 18 years, in Southwestern Indiana, I have trapped a copula times outside Greenfield were you reside. I have caught countless number of fox right alongside coyotes right in the farm country. In fact if you know anything about Indiana you know that here in Greene county Indiana were I live is as rural as you can get here in Indiana, this season I have trapped 30 fox, 10 gray, 20 red, and only 12 coyotes. So much for your theory that fox only live in town. As far as rabbits and groundhogs well I own a 400 acre farm and I have more rabbits and groundhogs than I care too. Most of the small game numbers are more affected by farming practices than anything else. So far on this thread most have only given hot air as proof of their theories. Those who show sound evidence are put down and basically booed. What a lot of you are saying is the creator made a mistake by putting these animals together. As stated the biggest piece of evidence is that these animals lived together without any problems for thousands of years prior to white people and their silly ideas interfered. csiwildlife
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csiwildlife
Tenderfoot...
people protect what they value
Posts: 8
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Post by csiwildlife on Nov 17, 2006 11:19:59 GMT -6
I live in Sothern Indiana and there are plenty of fox.
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csiwildlife
Tenderfoot...
people protect what they value
Posts: 8
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Post by csiwildlife on Nov 17, 2006 11:38:00 GMT -6
Bob were do you get your information that there are no fox in Southern Indiana, in fact there were 15 road kills last summer in between Bloomington, and Calvertsville. My wife enjoyed watching a family of reds being reared in the Solsberry cemetery on her way home from work every night. This cemetery sits across from a cattle farm, next to a hay field and in front of a forest reserve. Like I said earlier I have already put 30 on stretchers. The fox and coyote hunt and live together sharing the same habitats here. I have to be extra diligent on my traps and checks because when I put out a set its a 50/50 chance it will catch a yote or fox. I catch fox at sets with yote urine and gland lure. Now the canines do compete for natural resources and if food is scarce the yotes will go after the smaller fox. But I would wager a bet its worse over around Indy like in Hancock county were urban sprawl is totaly out of control. But here in southwest Indiana there are thousands of acres of farms and tens of thousands of acres of forest and preserves the animals are faring much better. I do ADC trapping in Bloomington and all of Monre county which is under tremendous pressure of urban sprawl and in the more open areas left yes you would be hard pressed to find a fox, in the open neighborhoods were larger lot sizes are the rule you do find foxes, but these conditions are abnormal, a direct result of human interferrence. Bob I think this scenario is more what you are expressing. But out were I live were the habitat is more or less intact it just dont ring true. csiwildlife joshcrissen rt 1 box 91 b Bloomfield IN 47424
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Post by Jeffrey on Nov 17, 2006 12:05:30 GMT -6
I think most are missing the point of the conversation, if you can honestly say that the fox population is the same before and after coyotes, then you haven't really seen the before and after. Before coyotes my partner who is as good as any and older than most, could catch a hundred fox a year. The one I caught this year is the first in several years we've caught. So far this year 1 fox 14 coyotes, granted we only run 50 traps in a couple of towns, but it's not what it used to be. Mister biologist, when your prey species tumble, what canine while survive then? And once that happens, how long will it take for the fox to recover, if they do. Many years ago the Canadian Gov. where studying the wolves on Isle Royal, there where a lot of moose and at the time nine packs of wolves. When the moose population crashed the wolves had war and the two strongest packs were left. Same will happen to the fox eventually, they won't be wiped out, but the coyotes Will manage them.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 17, 2006 12:54:02 GMT -6
cswildlife. doesn`t stack up. I know several very good trappers in your area, richard mcilvaine for one. hasn`t caught a fox this year, one last year, but plenty coyotes. jerry joe barnett and jerry schilling south of you, over 100 coyotes each and don`t need the fingers on one hand to count the fox catch. you are chitting the wrong guy. I`ve no idea your intentions, but you can`t fool me. want to stack up your 30 fox to my 13,000? your year biology degree to my d.v.m degree? 30 fox is a good DAY, not a good year. you havn`t even lived long enough to be born when fox were coyotye free in indiana, so you can`t possibly know your ass from a hole in the ground on fox population dynamics pre and post coyote invasion. purdue area, randy smith from pa trapped it for 10 days thisd fall, 92 coyotes and 2 reds! why do I even waste my time with underlinmg mental midgets on a subject I am an expert on and they are just greenhorns? crazy isn`t it. won`t happen anymore. plus with the rain we`ve had, I doubt you even trapped this season. the cemetary fox are just what I said, city types because enough humans visit there to keep coyotes away. you are bogus b.s.er. don`t believe a word you say. and yoiu are giviong biology degrees a bad name. no more responces to youy or anyone on this thread . b.s. all you want. you all have everything to gain from my knowledgeand me nothing to gain from giving it. wouldn`t mind that, never have, but to get insulted in the process , to heck with that. lifes to short. this isn`t a discusdsion , it`s degrasded to an argu,ment and defamation of expert opinion by menmtal midgets.
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Post by mikespring on Nov 17, 2006 13:24:43 GMT -6
Bob you can`t trap contiuous ground here...property is too cut up...some farmers want the coyotes for deer management, some want the foxes for rodent control,and some just plain like having them both around. Coyotes been here for 29 years Bob...not because I say so but because there is documented proof. Coonduke posted he had a fox den all summer then coyote scat there come fall...did the yotes get the fox..maybe..maybe not. Then I posted that I had knowledge of several dens of differant canines(fox/coyote) in the same vacinity. Then you... LMAO... decide to give me a lesson in fox and coyote biology..thanks. I never said catches of 12 fox and 6 coyotes per farm was the norm here Bob...the norm on MY line would be 3 or 4 fox and a couple of coyotes per farm....not all farms produce bob as I`m sure you know. Geeze Bob with you being a proffessional and all...it really shocks me that you have never seen canines den in such close proximity of one another...but if you say you`ve never seen it...well.... I guess you hav`ent then.
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Post by Hornhunter on Nov 17, 2006 13:30:26 GMT -6
This season I never caught a fox. Last year released 2 fox. When the coyote started showing up here it was in fox trappers sets, Soon fox and bobcat were far and few between. just in the past several years have bobcat returned in any numbers to this area. The coyote just takes over, cat's lose out to the coyotes that out produce in litter size. More coyote less rabbit - less bobcat The fox numbers have never come back. Other parts of the state-Southern part- at least a few trappers catch almost as many fox as coyote.--City fox! never had a coyote kill a fox in a trap, probably cause I catch so few, but coyotes did kill and eat one that was in a coyote snare.
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csiwildlife
Tenderfoot...
people protect what they value
Posts: 8
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Post by csiwildlife on Nov 17, 2006 14:36:59 GMT -6
caught 2 more gray fox today , thats 32 fox. Say what you want Bob proffessional or not. You dont even listen, I have caught 32 fox this year I will catch more before its over. I also tried telling you that the foxes " in the good ole days" were above carrying capacity and were sustained by the trappers. After the crash when the fur prices hit rock bottom and most folks quit trapping that is what done the fox in. The coyotes only helped suppress them from jumping back. But in my area they are coming back.
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Post by CoonDuke on Nov 17, 2006 17:13:39 GMT -6
Mike, I really don't know what happened to the foxes in that litter. Maybe the coyotes but I don't know? I know the crops were harvested on that 80 acre farm before any of the farms around it were harvested...so maybe they dispersed. Construction about 200 yards from the location may have pushed them out too...really no way of knowing but they are gone.
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Post by Dhat on Nov 17, 2006 17:26:08 GMT -6
with all this talk of prey species you cant help but consider how birds of prey are taking away food that the foxes used to have before the birds got protected. tons of birds of prey out there now
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Post by foxtrapperwoman on Nov 17, 2006 18:08:25 GMT -6
Here I have tons of birds of prey and tons of foxes, and where there is habitat we still have some rabbits, but I have never seen the rabbits so low in population at my place than the last few years. Same amount of birds of prey, but seems to be more foxes so I think the foxes are getting the rabbits and thinning them out.
BTW I had another fox today where the coyote was seen and nothing touched her.
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Post by mikespring on Nov 17, 2006 18:18:28 GMT -6
I understand todd...no way of really knowing.
Dhat...We also have an abundance of red tailed hawks...they went on the endangered species list I believe in the mid 70s...about the same time we started losing our pheasants. I`m sure they take a few fox pups also...to what extent I havn`t a clue.
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cndgmn
Tenderfoot...
Posts: 19
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Post by cndgmn on Nov 17, 2006 19:20:03 GMT -6
I got an opossum and a red in a double today.It helps validate my suspicion that grinners are preying on reds and will eventually drive them out.
This blame game really is too easy.
Why do we set areas like logging roads,two tracks,and the path of least resistance for fox/yotes? Its because they instinctively take the path of least resistance to conserve energy.Thinking that a yote who instinctively conserves energy will run after every fox he gets a whiff of is just plain foolishness.It makes no sense why they'd burn that much energy over a rank meal of fox (if they're lucky)when theres much easier game to be had.They'd be a bag of bones in two weeks.
Sure they are competitors,but to what degree.A massive study of stomach contents would have to be done to ascertain the degree to which they are competitors.I'm sure coyotes don't help foxes rebound after they've been wiped out by disease as any competition is worse than none.
This talk of litters brings to mind another factor.Urban sprawl and increased traffic.IMO young foxes are highly susceptible to become roadkill.The small percent you see along the roads are just that,you don't see the numbers that are clipped and wander off to die slowly.I take the same back country road to work every evening and had this litter of four reds I was watching.Two were killed while mouthing an old coon carcass and one was killed in a dip from downhill traffic.This is a back country road and but one litter,put that on the grand scale and we're talking thousands.BTW I did trap the last of that litter on an atv trail,figured he'd have gotten smeared anyhow.
The point is that the number of foxes taken by yotes(if any) doesn't amount to a hill of beans compared to other factors.They simply make it harder to rebound due to competition for some foods and aiding the spread of disease.
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Post by MartyPhipps on Nov 17, 2006 19:31:26 GMT -6
When I was a kid ( I'm about Bobs age) I got fired up about canine trapping when I took my muskrats to the furbuyer and met an old codger (70ish) that had 2 doz. reds caught with 1 doz. traps in a week.
That fired me up so I started my first attempts.
I was also working as a coon skinner and scraper for a guy who at the time was really giving Groeney a run for his money. Had trucks buying for him everywhere. We were putting up a thousand coon a day.
Set my fox traps about a mile from his fur barn and caught two coyotes. He thought it was novel, so he gave me $40 each to show off to his friends. The first two Illinois coyotes he had ever seen (both females). This was from a guy that was buying a thousand coon a day. Every couple days there would be a truck with 4 or 500 fox to dump off.
I personally never saw 20, 30, or 40 fox days, but believe it was possible then, but not now in Illinois. Sort of substantiates Bob's opinion.
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Post by CoonDuke on Nov 17, 2006 20:10:03 GMT -6
There is a study going on in PA on predators stomach contents to see resource partitioning between sexes and species. A prefessor at Susquehanna University is collecting red, gray, coyote, mink, and weasel carcasses. I delivered my fox carcasses to him last week.
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Post by sdgunner on Nov 17, 2006 20:27:10 GMT -6
Here is a master's thesis on fox/coyote prey analysis done in SD. I am way to new at all of this to have any qualified opinion. I hope Bob is still at least listening in on this thread because I for one am interested in his opinion. wfs.sdstate.edu/wfsdept/Publications/Theses/Parke,%20Robbie%20W.%20MS-2004.pdf
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Post by kyboy on Nov 17, 2006 21:19:28 GMT -6
Well here in the mountains of Eastern, Ky greys far outnumber the reds. Ive been trapping greys here for a bit over 20 years and have noticed a habitat and population change in the greys. More so on the habitat change. The greys once ran the ridge tops and big timber. Now the yotes rule there and the greys run the hollars and bottoms below the yotes. We still have a excellent grey population but I have noticed a decline in some yote thick areas. To much competition I suppose. Big boy moves in and bullys the little boy out?? I do know that yotes will kill a grey as I have seen it happen. I dont know the frenquency but I do know it does occasionally happen.
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