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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 18, 2016 13:35:35 GMT -6
Nope hoe far are you pulling coyotes with a call lure placement of 6 ft off the ground?
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Post by trappnman on Jun 18, 2016 13:38:08 GMT -6
The numbers mean something how far away DO YOU feel you are pulling coyotes to your trap sets with a high placement of call lure? Ie tracks in the snow confirmed this coyote hit the call lure at X distance and the tracks confirmed them comming on a straight line to the odor source?
I track each coyote to the set- I don't need snow- the average coyote on no high lure is 127 yards, with a high lure average 347 yards- but oh that day in aught'2..........
why throw meaningless numbers out there?
the numbers mean nothing!
either you think you can call a coyote to a set location, or you do not.
if you do not- then it is what it is, I disagree 100% and we will leave it at that.
but if you do- then it is 100% fact that the more wind that a scent is exposed to, the more it dissipates (btw you can't have dispersal of an odor without dissipation. to argue not, is below this forums IQ.
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Post by trappnman on Jun 18, 2016 13:38:51 GMT -6
that's ok- its over your head
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 18, 2016 13:43:33 GMT -6
So we will end it with you have no proof how far the call lure at 6 ft draws coyotes? I get that and have sensed such. i just know they can smell things much closer to the ground and have little need to hang call lure up in a tree at 6ft because I see NO REAL VALUE in doing such that I can prove. We could say a coyote was caught in the trap it had to be the call lure, but that would not be factual without evidence of such. It could be they where within arms reach of the set and smelled the other attractors first and foremost, but you also where never the type to pay attention to the wind and your set location either. So who knows what attracts them and how?
It is not about drawing a coyotes to the set location , it is all about how far can your or I and a call lure do such that is the main point of this entire conversation. We draw coyotrs to a set location all the time hence them stepping on the trap pan, the issue comes how far can one draw them to the set location. We know some of that by trap placement and the further we get off the harder the time it is to catch them. No worries it happens in calling as well, the life cycle of coyotes.
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Post by trappnman on Jun 18, 2016 13:51:46 GMT -6
seriously Randy- whats your problem here?
don't use high lure, low lure or more than 5 drops as you advocate. I could care less.
but to go round and round and round about feet is mind boggling to me as a serious student of scent and coyotes.
the only thing that is under discussion, or at least by the ones that posted, is that a scent higher up, gets out more than one down low.
if you don't believe that I'm sorry- your disbelief doesn't change the fact that its true.
so if a lure goes out at a made up figure of 50 feet on a backing, then the same odor will go out further, if higher up. that's science old boy- not opinion.
you see no real value, yet the guys that really pound the coyotes (and not me, but I've caught a few) believe a high lure is worth the effort and see real value in it. I'd have to concur based on the science of how things dissipate
lots and lots of things I do for coyotes, that you find no value in. I'm ok with that.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 18, 2016 14:07:52 GMT -6
I am not one to state things unless I know them to be of real benefit without proof. I get the fact that odors can reach further higher up, but that is just a statement, if the coyote doesn't work the set then what difference does it make? We are talking why th all lure is placed high at a coyote set right?
People have always told me you can't call coyotes to a road, false why? I have done it and reasoned out why it does work in those situations where I have done it. Blanket statements have never been a thing for me, so by us just saying 6ft high call lure is better for trapping coyotes than 18" call lure, that too is just a statement without the proof.
What other factors need to be present for it to add real value? Or does anything have to be there besides just 6ft high call lure? Too many I swerved questions for such statements. Like all of the others that have been told through the years. You need a kneeling cloth, you can spit around a set, urine has to be at every set, big backings scare off coyotes, etc,etc.
You need a call lure at every set?
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Post by Steve Gappa on Jun 18, 2016 14:16:30 GMT -6
I don't use a HIGH call lure by every set, indeed I seldom do.
I do use a call lure AT every set
a blanket statement of something in the wind is going to be blown on more than something out of the wind, is a blanket i'll gladly wear
so by us just saying 6ft high call lure is better for trapping coyotes than 18" call lure, that too is just a statement without the proof.
I'll say 6 feet is higher than 18"
I know you will argue that-
but trust me, it is-
and SCEINCE shows us the effect of wind currents on objects (and scent IS an object)
the more wind currents, the more area dispersed.
again- no wild guess- pure fact
so if you can't make the leap, then you can't.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 18, 2016 14:36:14 GMT -6
I see little reason using a call lure at every set I rely on the wind and set location to put coyotes into my traps. In fact I love using trail sets with no bait or lure because there is no hesitation to trail sets, they don't work everywhere but I find them to add real value as your trapping down the area population.
again we can debate what a "call lure" is as well. But another time. I use a lot of bait anymore and like the volume smells that come from such, one could call someof them a call lure due to ingredients but I still call them baits as the base is meat from an animal.
I find no need for LDC's much unless it gets really cold and I want skunk to break through very cold weather.
Again a broken record yes lure calls up higher but that means nothing on its own. Again coyotes can smell me from 100's of yards away a lure should be no problems from the same height. Does the call lure bring them in for investigation or not? That is all that matters to me. If I can't pull coyotes 100 yards I could careless if they can smell something from 100 yards. so call lures are of limited value to me overall. I want to be right under there nose or offer a very large attraction to really pull them in. Not 1 ounce of call lure on a tree branch.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 14:36:19 GMT -6
Seldom what does a wolf smelling at a call lure mean? Was his set along the travel way of the wolf or did this LDC lure pull that wolf a few 100 yards off the line of travel? I used to use fox urine under my tree stand when bow hunting, the deer would smell it and investigate it for a good period of time right below me, they picked up the urine smell with the wind blowing such to them and that was right on the forest floor, yet they had no problem detecting such. All about the wind. As I stated, I made that post because I remembered Stef posting the photo with the XLDC high off the ground.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 18, 2016 14:45:19 GMT -6
My question would be A did he catch the wolf? B did the call lure close the deal? If yes and yes then I see the merit of such, if not then why bother?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 14:54:52 GMT -6
I use a call lure at most every scented set as well. In fact, my top producing lure for 8 connective years has been a call lure used below ground level.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2016 14:57:32 GMT -6
My question would be A did he catch the wolf? B did the call lure close the deal? If yes and yes then I see the merit of such, if not then why bother? Apparently it was either before your time or it was something missed, I don't remember the thread, the topic, just the two photos And him mentioning that it was his XLDC. Maybe he was testing or using it for a snaring draw scent or all I know since there was a good depth of snow cover.
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Post by trappnman on Jun 18, 2016 15:27:20 GMT -6
Does the call lure bring them in for investigation or not?
IMO, yes. based on sets using call lure, vs not using a call lure at the set
same way I know more lure out produces small amounts of lure
or I know that setting in the spot takes coyotes quicker than setting in the "see a track set a trap" mindset.
or that I know hole sets out produce post sets
By doing.
By experience.
by trying things, and studying them, and trying to use the data, and improving, and building on what was learned before. Plenty have caught more than me, and god knows plenty know more about coyotes than me but I'm pretty confident in my abilities- and when someone proves a point (1080 going to Indie multiple times for example) or the urine use of old timers.... when someone takes what I know- and instead of contradicting it adds to it and builds upon it in a logical, thoughtful way- I listen.
if your experience is different- that's as it may be. Refer back to an earlier post concerning that.
its hard to compare methods with you, because we differ so substantially in basic coyote tactics
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Post by bobbrennan1 on Jun 18, 2016 16:19:22 GMT -6
I believe the reason he used the call up high at a set like that was so when the fox got in close it would pay attention to the set where the scent was more controllable. I have not tried this as I don't trap in the same situation as Johnny did.
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Post by redsnow on Jun 18, 2016 16:33:01 GMT -6
Above you were talking about how far animals would come to a lure/set. I'll tell you this real quick.
Years ago, I had 2 dirtholes set beside a farm lane, near the river. Don't remember exactly what all I'd caught there, I know fox, a skunk, maybe a coon or two? But I checked those sets with binoculars, one morning we had a little dab of snow on the ground, and I had a mink. Those 2 sets were back from the river, probably 30 yards. The snow didn't lay right beside the river, maybe out 3 or 4 feet. But from where the mink got into the snow, it was a strait shot right up to my set. Don't remember if I stepped it off or not?, but thinking about it now, it trailed down that set better than 50 yards.
I'll bet you a dollar if we'd go down there today, and stretch a chalkline from the set, to where the mink left the edge of the river it didn't vary side-to-side more than 10 feet either side. Tells me that mink have a helluva good nose! Not sure about coyotes? I have tracked where they've turned around and found a set.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 18, 2016 18:36:10 GMT -6
So the fox using the wind and his line of travel could not smell the other lure bait 10-15 ft away? Having a hard time understanding the sardines in a pop can? Versus sardines in the hole?
Not debating the nose of critters, debating the idea how far you can attract a coyote to a singular smell like a call lure 6ft up in a Limb to ones set. I will try it with my trail cam and see what happens.
Again seldom now tells us that his best use for a call lure is directly at the set below ground level, so why up high then in the first place? Considering we have no idea how far a coyote will leave a path of travel,once said call lure is smelled upon the wind currents 50 ,100,200 yards away. Again I know how far a coyote can smell as I have been winded at distances that where recorded with a laser range finder. The point remains how far will a high up call lure bring a coyote into the trap set 5-15 feet away from such call lure up high?
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Post by bobbrennan1 on Jun 18, 2016 18:39:43 GMT -6
In my opinion cold and hunger are a great motivator for an animal to respond to lure just look at the sets that are used in Canada and Alaska one example would be a mink in a marten box in a tree
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 18, 2016 18:58:33 GMT -6
I agree but with extreme cold it has to have a good payoff or those are wasted precious calories searching to find something. I had great results with large bait stations from Decemebr thru March out west and could snare a lot of coyotes in such conditions all going to and from the big bait stations I maintained, the pay off was there they where not hit night one or two they needed to mellow before the coyotes would really work them over, but when they did restocking and feeding continued on for sure. Care more than a handful of coyotes but all of those coyotes in that area. Not much different than the 1080 bait stations used in years gone by.
Why snares and not traps? Easy snares in cold and snow far easier to maintain and operate and rarely had any live coyotes with my snare setups I made.
Still back to the point one deer is not going to cut it between Eagles, Hawks, magpies and crows they just did not last long enough and did not get near the same reaction as a large bait station left alone for 5-7 days and then setting up the already pre rigged snares and setting up the draw station, the result where far better than just baiting and hanging snares day one.
So my point of contention remains in this, why would a group of coyotes want to check out just a call lure from a longer distance if the pay off had little else to offer? No sighs or sounds to good along with it? Many coyotes become carrion dependant in the winter evidence by the number or tracks and coyotes seen at road kill along the highways I would travel. They would risk more for the large pay off, versus a smaller one in much larger numbers.
Wiley E setup a bait station where he could watch coyotes interact with it from his window in his house, he said they would approach with far more caution when first placed and spent far less time around it the first few days then after wards they would come in with far more confidence and stay longer on avg. knowing coyotes that makes a lot of sense and what one should expect in such a situation there.
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Post by bluecoons on Jun 18, 2016 19:56:51 GMT -6
When johnny showed me the minnow cans, he emphasized that they needed to be hung up high where the sun would hit the can and keep them "working". Also he wanted a certain size of branch to hang them from that would not the support the weight of a coon. He didn't want a critter walking off with his can. Bears, he said still took quite a few. And if I'm not mistaken, he poked some pin holes in the can because he wanted them to drip. So I'm not so sure that the height of the smell was what he was concerned with, as much as keeping that smell at the location. Oh, and as I recall, they were definently beer cans, not soda cans!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jun 18, 2016 20:49:18 GMT -6
Thanks blue coons that makes far more sense to me.
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