it always comes back to coyotes...................

[trappnman]

boy, lots there that goes against my experience

[Deleted]

Well there ya go!  I've been an outsider since I restarted canine trapping because many of my observations and experiences did/have not jived with "those who said it to the greatest magnitude"!  I don't believe anybody is WRONG(I've been told I'm wrong) but I believe there are conditions, populations, and local circumstances that are different in different parts of the country.  It is what it is!

[Deleted]

Somewhere I thought I read where Carmen wrote- "if you can't get "good" urine, use gland in it's place."  I thought it was in the pamphlet or his book but either I'm over reading it OR it was in someother wrtittings of his.

[RdFx]

Seldom when i was short of good fox or yote urine and bought what i could and it didnt seem to agree with what my nose said it should be i dumped fox or yote gland in it and shaked the hell out of it and continued on and it served its purpose.
Also as you said no one is wrong IF it works for them. Just becuase one method works for some other trapper doesnt mean it will work for you in your area. There are many variables and when you get them right in area you are trapping you bull ahead and keep on skinning !

[trappnman]

I've always said, paraphrasing ChrisM- "if it works for you, then you are doing it right"

but at the same time, when you have 2 trains of thought- one from a group that lives eats and breathes coyotes, and compare that to another group that doesn't................

a good example is the group that swears you cannot catch a coyote over a high backing- and I read this and see this said in videos and then repeated as if fact........

and my experience shows just the opposite

or those that state, seriously, that 4-5 drops of lure is all you can use, and that using more "spooks" a coyote, and it takes time (4-7 days is often given) for a set to "cool off" so that, apparently a coyotes tender nose can handle the scent.

[Deleted]

Yes, the amount of lure controversy is an interesting example, apparently those folks never watched your video!  Nor would they believe me last year when I mixed all the partials and failures together and put anywhere from over a 1/2 cup to a full cup down a vertical 3" hole.  That's a LOT of stink by golly!  Coyotes and fox ran to it, not away from it! 

[trappnman]

When I was lucky enough to have a pig dump (and oh my what an attraction that was!) and could see it on a on a daily basis, I'd see rotting pigs dragged, and dismembered, and ate with a lot of such each day. To think that 10 drops of lure would spook a coyote, is absurd to my mind- so when someone says that.....I need to wonder why?

[cameron1976]

Jun 9, 2016 13:07:20 GMT -6 trappnman said:

boy, lots there that goes against my experience

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that Carman probably grew up more a red fox trapper than a coyote trapper. Let me clarify that I am NOT suggesting that Carman is unable to catch coyotes or that he is a poor trapper. What I am suggesting is that his home area is traditionally more fox country than it is coyote country, and as such he likely has more experience trapping reds. So is it possible that he is basing his thoughts on coyote urine from many years of trapping red fox?

[trappnman]

yes, that is my feeling as well.

[redsnow]

Well, let me ask how much lure do you guys like to use? If a man is fur trapping, and buying his lures, you can't hardly afford to use $10 worth of lure at each set.

Another thing I've been looking at, what kind of spacing is best? I've been told 9" and 2", sometimes I'll set back 14" or so. Just depends on where the rocks are located.

[trappnman]

Its hard to say how much I use- I take a wide popsicle stick, and dip it in and scoop up a little- at a guess, I'm using an oz at every 5-6 sets- double that with 2 lures- so lure cost if $18 a 4oz it would be under $1 in lure, bait would be less, urine as well- but I'm sure I got $2-3 at every set in lure/bait/urine

I set trap pretty much in the middle of the pattern, slightly offset to right side- I have my outer jaw 3-5" from edge of hole

[cameron1976]

Steve it sounds like you use 2 different lures at most of your sets, in addition to bait and urine. When using two lures what type of combo are you using; 1 gland and 1 call lure, two different call lures, or some other combination?

[trappnman]

I like 2 contrasting lures- what I like to call "sweet & sour" because my alltime favorite combo is a minty sweet type of cat lure, combined with a good skunk lure.

I don't worry so much about what type of scent (ie gland, food, call, etc) but rather want to different scents, no matter how different.

and 2 baits as well- a prepared bait (Kick Ass or Showtime are my go to) plus 1/2 of a pocket gopher that I freeze, and take out on day of use 9thery chop in half much easier froze)

I'm convinced not that you can't catch coyotes (the ability of their nose cannot be overstated) on 1 lure, or a few drops of lure....but again we come back to get them first day or 3, and move on. Plus, heavy luring with my schedule of a week, makes it so I don't have to relure unless unique circumstances such as heavy rain. I do if a set hasn't connected, re urine it a day or two before pulling

[Deleted]

I went back and viewed Ed Schnieder's step-down dirt hole video and a then found a video of a Mark Schaefer making a "trench-type" step-down.  My step-down is somewhere in between.

 I continue to find it interesting that almost universally, trappers believe coyote and fox approach the set straight on, inline with the digging.  This is one of the things that makes me an outsider, because I've proved they don't, it's always from an angle, actually quite acute of an angle.  One of the most obvious examples is when a coyote approaches a walk-thru set with the two holes and only scratches at the downwind hole and leaves.  Never have I seen where a coyote or fox ever worked the walk-thru or scratched a hole other then from an acute, sidewise angle.  

Again, the remedy for when this occurs is to simple set another trap about 45 degrees downwind of the scratched hole, that in itself is another proof of an angled approach.  No different then the approach to a dirt hole set in my opinion, that's why I discovered and instituted the theory in 1971 dirt hole set for fox.

[trappnman]

you have me wrong on that Seldom- I believe a coyote will almost always try to work a set from the side and/or back. and that many sets with little or no backing are investigated from behind (that dang snow!)

so I have no doubt that is what they do- but the shape of the hole, the shape of the set, is going to force him to work it st on- he simply has no choice

approaches a walk-thru set with the two holes and only scratches at the downwind hole and leaves. Never have I seen where a coyote or fox ever worked the walk-thru or scratched a hole other then from an acute, sidewise angle.

isn't a coyote there in the morning, proof he works it otherwise?

[Deleted]

Jun 10, 2016 15:05:05 GMT -6 trappnman said:

you have me wrong on that Seldom- I believe a coyote will almost always try to work a set from the side and/or back. and that many sets with little or no backing are investigated from behind (that dang snow!)


isn't a coyote there in the morning, proof he works it otherwise?

No, I wasn't including you with the masses (lol) after seeing your video.

If I'm understanding your last comment.  I have maybe a 5% average of my coyotes inclined to only spend enough time to scratch, not dig the down-wind hole and leave but they always work the hole and just plain stand exactly where the original trap was in relation to the up-wind hole.  Why they leave without crossing over the trap to work the bait hole (bait hole is always the up-wind hole of my walk-thru).  So, I place a 2nd trap laterally on the down-wind of the original trap and yes, the coyote is there the next morning or the 2nd morning in the 2nd trap.  It's really automatic!
                                                                                                                    N
                                   Wind direction  N/NW                               up-wind hole     down-wind hole
                                                                                                       O                      O

                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                   X                     X
                                                                                                          original trap         2nd trap
                                                                                                                              S

[Aaron.F]

I know this post was originally about dirt hole sets, but I see it has transitioned to an overall discussion. In my limited time of trapping coyotes I have tried the two hole flat set such as Tom Mirand style, or with the two holes on either side of the trap and I have come to not like either. I much prefer my scent to be above ground on some type of object such as a T-bone, felt wrapped dowel, bamboo or conduit like Zagger uses. I just have not had much success with the wobble holes. I don't think the scent disperses as well in the ground, it can flood out and it doesn't give anything visual. I think the added visual helps the coyote think there is something to steal that he can take away with him.

[Deleted]

I have had exactly the opposite experience!  No kiddin, the exact opposite!  I tested the pipes twice, once with unknown scents as in actaul testing of scents that I do and the 2nd time, so as there would be no mistaken reaction, with two of my tested and time proven scents.  The coyote AVOIDED them and I'm serious, I could easily see with the "proven" scents the coyote would actaully turn away and avoid them!  I heard through the grapevine that the pipe set is intended for YOY, not adults.  I don't know and don't care.  
It never fails to amaze me, the differences of experiences we have trapping!!


 Now here's what I think is an interesting twist to the pipes.  When I pulled all sets last Januaray I pounded-in 3 sets of pipes(6), lured them as if they were my working sets and never looked at them until mid-April.  Of the 6 pipes I had 1 pipe with a few teeth marks and I don't know what chewed it, could have easily been a coon where that particular set was located.

Concerning scent strength.  I've used Setf's LDC in my walk-thrus and I'm here to tell you that when approaching from downwind I could smell that lure from 30yds-40yds away and I CAUGHT coyotes!

[redsnow]

I think part of it is the "confidence factor" too. I like to be able to smell my lure, it just makes me feel better. It might not help my catch? but at least I know it's there working.

Now looking at your 2 sets above, with the upwind and downwind hole sets, what's your trap spacing? Right at 12" or so?

[Deleted]

Jun 10, 2016 18:59:10 GMT -6 redsnow said:

I think part of it is the "confidence factor" too. I like to be able to smell my lure, it just makes me feel better. It might not help my catch? but at least I know it's there working.

Now looking at your 2 sets above, with the upwind and downwind hole sets, what's your trap spacing? Right at 12" or so?

The original set (walk-thru) has two holes and a single trap.  If you spread the fingers of both hands and touching your index fingers and your thumbs together, the holes will be where your little fingers tips are and the center of the pan will be where your thumbs touch. This set works equally as well whether it's coyote, reds or greys without any changes to it's structure.

 Remember, the 2nd trap is only used when I encounter a scratcher.