learning more than I'd like about snow trapping......

[trappnman]

its been an....interesting period over the last 2+ weeks.

first of all, we had 12 days of temps below the freezing point- so start out with 4-5 inches of snow, then add in horrible winds for most of that period, with a skiff of snow every other night. Then a very brief 2 days over the weekend where it got to 40, and 52- then snow again Monday, then snow again yesterday and this morning 2 below zero- and then 37 on sat, then cold again. Rochester just south of me had more snowy days during that period, than any other city reporting

just can't wean myself from the coyotes- Friday, and Tues pulled all but 18 traps- had 2 out of those 18 yesterday

been getting coyotes everyday, not many but coyotes non the less. One good thing, is that the fur is as good as it is going to get.

last week seemed like everyday, sets had 2-4 inches of hard drifted snow over top- and we have gone back and forth in leaving sets be, and raking them off- preliminary thought is we do better with the raked off sets, than leaving them covered. Very much with open sets, if tracks around it one day, coyote the next.

Have not caught 1 double during this time- its all singletons.

I need to get some mink/rat traps out- did pick up a pair of coon sunday, 1st coon I've taken in almost a month. So not going to worry about getting coon sets out in water, at least not for now. with the prices, and the low numbers...not worth too much time.

I'm going to run these 18 sets for at least a few more days

[trappincoyotes39]

I bet you learned that snow trapping is just lots more work hey

traps are fine but in deep snow conditions snares are hard to beat IMO. bait stations and aggressive kill snares are tough to beat and maintenance much less.

One learns real fast in blowing snow where to set and maintain traps versus areas you work to put in a few sets only to come back to a drifted in mess.

[bobbrennan1]

6 more inches would make it a real pain!

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2014 13:08:46 GMT -6 bobbrennan1 said:

6 more inches would make it a real pain!

Not really, the answer in a broaden sense is found here.
 
"One learns real fast in blowing snow where to set and maintain traps versus areas you work to put in a few sets only to come back to a drifted in mess."

A person uses the the same learning process with the deepening snow.  It's been my experience that if a person continues to trap in snow with the same mindset they used during the earlier bare-ground period, they'll experience a real rate of diminishing returns on their efforts.  

[trappincoyotes39]

By the looks of the metal detector Tman your learning about drifting LOL.

[trappnman]

its easier said than done to determine non drifting areas, when even the addition of a set, and any type of backing- 1/2 inch of snow can add up fast when blowing- and you can see that the areas I'm setting- high, low or inbetween all get the same amount of snow over a set.

can't say I'm unhappy with this line- matter of fact its my 2nd best producing line this year- trouble is, on bare ground should have had far more production for these areas- this has been last 2 years a 4-5 coyote a day average for the 2 weeks, running a tad below 3 a day average. picked up 1 today in a remake, makes 4 from that set, and a singleton in a closeby set- so 5 is best for any 1 location this loop



heres the one in same set yesterday morning




bought that metal detector about 10-12 years ago, and it saved me from snow, and plowed traps. but on this spot, we looked 2 days, and nary a peep. that pic was Friday, sunday it was bare ground. snow was so hard packed, that signal couldn't get through I guess.

[trappnman]

never, I understand what you mean about trapping deep snow- I've experimented with it a time or two and yes, its a different mindset-

this snow trapping can be quite fairly called a big pain in my butt- but I do like seeing what goes on at a location.

raked everything open today...30 tomorrow and 37 sat then cold again- another maybe inch tonight late gone by dawn- if so, with warmer weather coming I'll leave them be tomorrow, they should melt off with a nice mottled look by late afternoon.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman I set in snow in wide open spaces out west where the wind blows above 20 mph for better than half of any month On the calendar . One needs to look at wind direction, terrain as the snow gets deeper the coyotes change with it . Forget the low areas unless they offer concealment from the wind , look at vegetation and ground what will blow clearer and what will snag snow .

I found it fun actually at times and about all my cat trapping was done with snow on the ground. Season never opened until mid December.

Have fun with it , keep After them with a good snare line and forget the coons.

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2014 19:41:50 GMT -6 trappincoyotes39 said:

Have fun with it , keep After them with a good snare line and forget the coons.

A new record!! Twice today I've agreed with TC!!!  Since Steve can use CR's in his State and loves his coyotes, if it were me I'd be hanging cable to beat the band!!  I'm waiting for deer season to end and some snow and even though my State doesn't have credible CR's Regs, let alone snaring, I seriously enjoy snow trapping canines and look forward to it regardless the depth!

During the early 2000's when we had commonsensical snaring Regs it was crazy fun.  Doubles after doubles after doubles in January!  So easy it didn't take an experienced trapper to put up numbers if you had the population and time.  The owners and managers of deer hunting acreages that had never set a trap in their lives had great times snaring their properties!

[bobbrennan1]

Ok never 6 inches of wet snow then cold what are you going to do? Also snow limits your locations as far as useing wind blown spots some times the wind blown spot isn't where the coyotes are what then?

[Deleted]

Those are both good questions.  Let's understand I live in Central Mi and deal with every kind of snow conditions most folks get at my latitude with Lake Mi on my west side.   So basicly I get up to 2', maybe a little more but not 3' and all the thaw/freeze cycles most other get throughout a winter of mostly complete snow cover.

As you look through Steve's last photos especially about the middle ones(#7), you'll notice coyote tracks.  If you can see coyote tracks breaking through the crust if there is one, your sets should be working.  If you notice that the coyotes aren't breaking through or only intermittently, you'll need to do whatever is necessary to your set to rectifiy that ensures the trap is working or will work.  With 6" of snow cover and it thaws and you know it's going to freeze you would also know the intensity of the thaw(did it thaw full depth or only down a few inches).  There's no magic or secret to it, the coyote has to be able to reach and spring the trap so you do whatever is needed to make that happen!!

To answer your second question.-
There's a couple of choices depending on the specific snow conditions.  One is to change set types which can go hand-in-hand with the second choice, change locations!!!  The coyote came from somewhere and it going somewhere, I'd strongly suggest finding set locations that afford better set locations then under wind-blown snow cover conditions.  I've stated it once and I'll do it again, snow forces a change on mindset!!  If a person continues to trap in snow with the same mindset as bare ground, they will experience a marked decrease in catch.  This change of mindset INCLUDES location and it INCLUDES set type!!!

The snow conditions (depth & windblown) as viewed in Steve's photos and seeing the tracks I don't believe are the least bit extreme and is one reason why I believe Steve's rate of catch is still quite high using sets and locations he'd use without snow.  Your second question though I feel is more directed toward a more extreme snow condition.  A person would have to ask, if there was 1' of snow where his sets are today, would that location be where he should set tomorrow?  With 1' of snow, would today's set locations be the best OR would there be more appropriate locations elsewhere??  With 1' of snow, would the sets he's making today be the optimum set to use??

TC mentioned snares, would, could, should, Steve hang snares where is sets are today?  Yes, I'm being facetious with his photos showing no cable locations as such but in the light of trying to make a point.  Where is it cast in stone that dirt hole sets are what is suppose to be used with snow cover?   Where is it cast in stone that the set location Steve choose with shallow snow is where he should set when it's 1' deep?  It's the mindset and lack of adaptability where folks seem to continue to FORCE themselves to continue to ignore the obvious- conditions have changed, snow changes everything including the trapper's mindset if success or high catch rate is a factor! (certinly is)  As with is the only place to set where it's windblown???  Heck NO!!   If the mindset doesn't or can't change with the snow-  well it is what it will be!!

I'll talk about this windblown business for a minute.  Why do you think a windblown location is better then finding a set location on the same coyote's travels that isn't windblown??  Probably because you're trying to make the location FIT the SET rather then fit the set to the location!  I can assure you from experience that it's not, BUT you may have to adapt and use a different, a more approproate set that matches the location.  In his photos it's obvious Steve is using and choosing set locations based on the coyote's inherent behaviors with either no or shallow snow cover.  On the other hand TC has mentioned using cable which certainly utilizes a coyote's inherent behavior BUT the locations are completely different as snow depth increases just as different as the equipment used!!!  Same conditions, same coyote, different location, different device!!

Look, I'm a nobody, I don't catch 100's of coyotes but I don't have access to 100's of coyotes but what I do know is I have success and experience using a "change of mindset" reasoning with snow trapping in MY local!  Enough so that I look forward to snow and the enjoyment of working in it rather than wishing for it to stay brown!

[bobbrennan1]

I don't think a wind blown location is nesessarily better location other than a lack of snow. My feeling on snow trapping is it's twice as much work with conditions constantly changing and I feel it can be done but not really worth the effort! I'm from the west side of the state 3 miles from lake mi. So I do see some wind and snow. I also trap ny. And tx. I do understand that cold and hunger can be a great motivator for an animal to work a set but I guess I don't see how a person can run a line efficiently enough to make it worth while? Are you running off a snow machine? Are you in wooded areas or fields? Do you have as much luck in snow as you do with out snow?

[braveheart]

Hey T-man I know the feeling.It snows then blows then warms a little then snow and blows again.It is tough keeping thing working.The coyotes have been giving it up right a long.Have had a lot of singles also had on trap that had 4 coyotes and a fox with second trap off to the side 15 ft. never touched.Coyotes look good!!Most of the corn is out now helps the movement here.
Marty

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2014 23:04:31 GMT -6 bobbrennan1 said:

I don't think a wind blown location is nesessarily better location other than a lack of snow. My feeling on snow trapping is it's twice as much work with conditions constantly changing and I feel it can be done but not really worth the effort! I'm from the west side of the state 3 miles from lake mi. So I do see some wind and snow. I also trap ny. And tx. I do understand that cold and hunger can be a great motivator for an animal to work a set but I guess I don't see how a person can run a line efficiently enough to make it worth while? Are you running off a snow machine? Are you in wooded areas or fields? Do you have as much luck in snow as you do with out snow?

With you living so close to the Lake you'd naturally be trapping within the lake effect so when you have a snow event, you really do have an event whereas I don't unless it comes off the Bay which is seldom.

The majority of my canine trapping is in woods which during the early part of season(before deer season) I trap crop fields within the woods.  That's why I mentioned that depending on snow depth, I find set locations where blowing/drifting snow is not an issue.  Sure, the coyote do cross the snow-covered fields but that's all they're doing because they're coming from and going to the woods.  There's no prey in chisel-plowed fields so I don't concern myself with worrying about set locations keeping workable, far easier to have working sets in the woods/wooded cover then the fields.

Once I have 6"-8" for the sled, yes, I'm using it and with that snow depth I'm long gone from using scented sets.  I use footholds with the same principle as I did when I snared and with equal success rate.  In fact, even with a shallow snow depth after 12/1 a1/2 of my sets with be non-scented as long as I have enough snow to cover.  I may have strayed from your question but yes, the past 3 years I have equaled or bettered my catch rate in snow over bare ground even with scented sets.  That equates to MY efficency which may not equate to yours and the efficency rate has to include the coyote densities of the area we trap.

As I said previously, regardless of the type of set, the first and foremost facet of snow trapping to me is to do whatever I have to doto ensure I see that the coyote are breaking through vs leaving tracks on top the drifted/packed snow as you'd see coyote walking across packed sand.  If those are the snow conditions where you want to make a set, I'm suggesting that there are other set locations that same coyote will encounter where the snow conditions will be far more favorable to make a set.  The set may or may not be a person's favorite bare ground set but in efficiency terms, more appropriate!   As an example if a person wants to use a scented set and has maybe 2"-3" of snow, go where there's /minimal -no drifting or packing.  My scented sets with shallow snow are the same as I use with bare ground except my guiding becomes more pronounced/vertical and are never brushed or raked UNTIL I see that the coyote are not breaking through a crust.  So with no screwing around trying to maintain my sets, I change my mindset of location and set to match the location!

[Deleted]

Since we're in the same State, use a map devise/app and find Midland.  Notice the farm ground immdediately east of my county, I quit trapping that type of crop ground smoe years ago but look north and west of me and see how much less farm ground there is and it's in the big green area I do all of my canine trapping regardless of time of season.

Now back to efficency and how it equates to using non-scented sets in the snow.  Since you sound experienced you possibnly snared before the 2005 Reg change and understand the almost unparalleled efficency of using snares, at least for me they were.  The catch rate efficency of using footholds in the same manner as snares is equal for me.  The other side of the same coin is we could hang cable to beat the band whereas not so for me at least with footholds but still whether it's a snare hanging or a foothold the very next coyote that comes through will be caught as sure as when we hung snares.  So, if it was efficenct for a person to use snares as TC is really talking about, it is absolutely the same efficency rate for me with a foothold.

[bobbrennan1]

Ok I understand what your doing thanks for the info it sounds like fun but just won't work for me with what I do thanks for the info!

[trappnman]

an interesting discussion for sure.

to be clear- we ARE talking 2 different types of snow conditions. and I know for a fact that never is 100% correct when he states that you need a different mindset both in sets and locations for deep snow.

I'm dealing with, and will only deal with nuisance snow, that 1-3 inch stuff.

Did I also mention except for a few days, its been deer season most of the month?


trouble with snaring is multiple-

1) we cannot snare any state land in my zone. this eliminates pretty much the entire Upper Mississippi river bottoms- the #1 place I'd snare if able to be there. so what I have left for the most part, is strips of woods, and fields. I'm not saying that a large bait pile consisting of 5-6 calves in heavy cover, wouldn't be deadly on coyotes- but at the same time- I've GOT bait piles out in several spots over the winter consisting of beaver, rat and coon (and those that tell you coyotes don't eat coon haven't met MN coyotes, in fact they often hit the coon before the rats/beaver) and while there are tracks close by, they don't really use the piles regular until late winter. and every year, I see dead deer by the creeks- they lay for weeks and weeks- then in a night or two- poof! gone

2) our law states- "it is illegal to place any snare, in a deer trial"

Sounds commonsensical until you think about it a few seconds- and they DO enforce it. Real hard to set a snare on a trial with more deer tracks than coyote not so much cause I'm worried about deer, but worried about a dead deer in a snare on a DEER TRAIL

3) access becomes a big problem on private land. Not only would I indeed need a snowmobile, but we have such a strict trail system, that while some landowners would allow you to go back, others would not because if other yahoos saw your tracks, it becomes a trail. And if I got a snowmobile for trapping, a junk one wouldn't do- I'd want new or close to new for reliability. not worth the $$$ esp when January coyotes here, are starting to deteriorate pretty good with rubs.

4) we have a fair amount of hound hunters around here, and we get along for the most part over the years and share multiple farms- it works out good for both sides, that I'm done before they start

ironic I'm not snaring, since I was the guy that got it kickstarted in our zone, by threatening to go it alone, and to have my cousin in the state house bring up the bill without any "organized" support or input, and only that threat, got the ball rolling.

back to snow-

I'm coming up with some conclusions after close to 3 weeks of this snow trapping.

1) with the habits the coyotes are in during this period, they still are running their range as if normal, except for whatever disturbance deer hunting is providing. You can see pictures of my locations, and what they are. Therefore, while a snow covered set will function mechanically, I find that the lack of eye appeal, with the lack of open holes to get the scent out further in windy conditions, gives me a very low "check out" rate meaning either tracks by the set, or a coyote.

2) while a bare set/pattern did give me a few standoffs, I found that when I observed such, I'd have a coyote in that trap in the next day or two at the most.

3) I've found that the worst scenario, was the set covered in snow, but the hole still open- I'd have put money on the idea that this was the perfect setup but had more standbacks on days after 2-3" inches of snow, than I did in times when sets and patterns were visible.

4) I don't have a stiff broom, and that might be ideal but found that a leaf rake did a pretty decent job over and around the set, and I also used it to drag behind me to blur my tracks. I've gone both ways in leaving and opening sets (meaning a good if mottled pattern around set) and I am on the conviction that where and how I'm setting, I do better with open sets.

we got a little over an inch of fluffy snow last night- and with the temps in upper 20s today, and in low 40s tomorrow, I'll leave everything to avoid tracks, and to avoid messing AT the set

Overall, I'll be honest I feel more satisfaction in catching coyotes on this loop, then any loop in some time. Guess its the mindset not that "I could do better" but "damn, I'm doing good"

[bobbrennan1]

The soils with more organic matter tend to keep the hole open better and the trap working longer than field type soils better drainage and insulation I would guess

[Deleted]

Nov 28, 2014 7:42:16 GMT -6 trappnman said:

 
Overall, I'll be honest I feel more satisfaction in catching coyotes on this loop, then any loop in some time. Guess its the mindset not that "I could do better" but "damn, I'm doing good"

You better believe it!!!

[trappnman]

sets were snow covered, a dish over hole pattern and holes open. no coyotes, nor tracks but did get a bonus-