learning more than I'd like about snow trapping......

[CoonDuke]

I've found that if the holes are covered the catch to visit ratio goes way down. When the hole is not visible it changes the mechanics of the set completely.

Snow trapping calls for either a big hole or a post...unless one plans to do a lot of maintenance.

[trappnman]

I agree about the not visible hole results.

I remade everything today since its now mostly bare ground and froze hard- so with no precipitation coming, I relured, rebaited and made everything pretty again- I'll run them 4 more days


thing is, I've stayed long at these last few locations- 2 1/2 weeks- and I'm sure every coyote left has seen those sets, and smelled those lures, and looks at me as an old freind- so I've just been tweaking sets, having fun.

[Deleted]

Nov 30, 2014 12:54:40 GMT -6 CoonDuke said:

I've found that if the holes are covered the catch to visit ratio goes way down. When the hole is not visible it changes the mechanics of the set completely.

Snow trapping calls for either a big hole or a post...unless one plans to do a lot of maintenance.

In my opinion and experience, those two sets can certainly be used but I consider the/my walk-thru to perform better then those two hands down.  Again, it's all in the mindset, which is moving away from having the need to have visuals.  Now if the trapper feels , as his expereince and condidence level dictates, that in order for his sets to perform to the max that he needs visuals, then he'd better stick with the two Coon Duke mentions.

[trappincoyotes39]

Funny I remember seeing coyotes found buried under a foot of snow there dead kin from m-44's some where dug at and a patch of fur uncovered and others where peed on even though they where under the snow. more than just a straight line approach due to tracks in the snow that where visible, I found that very interesting.

Those coyotes sought out the source of the coyote smell as you could see the tracks straight lined then once they hit the scent cone of dead kin they circled back or right in on the smell. Zero visual in these cases.

[Deleted]

I forgot to address the high maintenance comment.  There is far less maintenance with the walk-thru then the other two because of the lack of visuals.  In fact, there's hardly anything more pretty and pleasing to me is looking at a walk-thru and seeing nothing, snow or bare ground! 

[CoonDuke]

My comments on the exposed hole are not about finding the odor, but that the open hole positions the animal over the trap to put its nose down the hole and (if it gets the chance) to work the set.

I assume never is using good guiding with the walk through and that is getting the animal positioned in snow cover.

I am going to add a disclaimer that most of my experience is with foxes...but why would one not want visual stimuli for winter or snow trapping? (Let's assume theft is not a factor) Visuals add to the attraction and make it a lot easier to find sets after a snow.

[trappincoyotes39]

Lots of times I think about the novel stimuli studies done and can help a guy with set selection/choice at times for sure.....................

[Deleted]

Nov 30, 2014 16:08:49 GMT -6 CoonDuke said:

My comments on the exposed hole are not about finding the odor, but that the open hole positions the animal over the trap to put its nose down the hole and (if it gets the chance) to work the set.

I assume never is using good guiding with the walk through and that is getting the animal positioned in snow cover.

I am going to add a disclaimer that most of my experience is with foxes...but why would one not want visual stimuli for winter or snow trapping? (Let's assume theft is not a factor) Visuals add to the attraction and make it a lot easier to find sets after a snow.

Yes, I anticipated your thoughts about alignment CD as the nice big open hole is certainly a guide.  Of the two you mentioned I would  actually rate the big dirt hole with a rat in it above the PP during snow cover time.

I've known for many years as some of us have been around each other and I knew you were more into fox but irregardless, your opinion has merit with me concerning canines.

While visuals certainly help the trapper find his sets, it's been my experience that visuals aren't necessary for my walk-thrus to work as I expect, bare ground or snow covered.  Again, it's the mindset of the trapper and what works for him in his area I guess.  It was eye-opening years ago when Steve described his walk-thru set and I've never looked back using it for all canines.  

I've said this before on this board about guiding my walk-thru with a snow cover.  Go vertical with the guiding and set where there's the least chance of drifting.  Mounds of snow as it accumulates is beautiful guiding!!

[trappincoyotes39]

Any set no matter what will benefit from some guiding depending on size of pan, jaw spread and distance from attractant to trap pan.

guiding takes on many forms,shapes and sizes. I have found a larger trap requires far less when using a pan that fits well inside the jaw's of the trap. guiding can be just the pan being the low,point in the pattern, cactus chunks, small bean stubble stems, small dirt mound, a clipping off a thorn bush near by etc.

My main thing is to make it look like the surrounding area. Now that said If I make a dirt hole set it is going to be deep if one single hole with multiple odors, a punch hole set to me is more like a flat set, the visual of it is close up and the coyote is on it before it really sees the small,punch holes, they found it with their nose first more times than not on such a set.

[CoonDuke]

Agreed. You have to understand my comments are regarding my style of set and how it functions on bare ground vs snow cover. I make a small hole, basically big enough to get a fox nose down it. The shape and angle of the hole is my major guiding along with small backing.

After a snowfall, the short backing is negated, the hole is negated and what happens is the animal pinpoints on the odor and works the attractor tight. The hole is blown out and they are on their way unless they just have bad luck and accidentally hit the trap.

We often don't get any amount of snow until after Christmas here. Up until December I am in fall trapping mode. After that, I switch up the whole program entirely with snowfalls in mind.

Post sets seem to be a "dirty word" in the coyote trapping world and seem to be falling out of favor. I am in no position to argue with that, but I will say that I can flat out catch red fox in post sets in wintertime using nothing but fox urine as an attractor. I really believe there is an art to making the post set work and a lot of guys can't do it. There are a lot of top notch fox trappers that run dirtholes all winter and they can make them work for them. But a lot of those guys don't get a lot of snow and are trapping full time and can do what needs to be done.

I have also done a lot of trail cam work with foxes. Some post sets guys make will flat out terrify a red fox...I would hate to see how a more "neophobic" coyote would react. Stick an arm sized branch in the ground 3 feet high and some red foxes won't go within 10 feet of it.

Ok, I'm done getting off topic and leading this thread astray...lol

[trappnman]

while one certainly can see coyotes will and do dig down through snow, as mentioned its not the digging part that's a concern its them working the set.

I like visuals for coyotes for general work. even on bare ground, I often place skulls or other cow bones away from the set 20-30 feet if not setting in tight, pinpoint locations such as stallouts. when I'm trapping the type of open country I'm trapping in, I feel strongly that that visual gives me coyotes that otherwise would not be aware of my sets. more and more, I like a big messed up area and I've seen nothing to convince me that having that dirt/mottled big pattern, scattered dirt hole set look is better than either hole set snow covered, or even hole open, but set snow covered.

If I trapped more serious snow, I'd start learning real quick about big guides

never, you know I like a similar walkthrough, but have to think your coyotes are tighter in use of cover, etc?

[Deleted]

Yes, on most properties where I choose to trap coyote , they do have far, far ,more cover which therefore holds the prey base and the reason they're there.  If it isn't wooded it's chisel-plowed but in my area  there are a very few hay fields and fewer that connect or are integral parts of large expanses of woods that I use.  Again, with snow and never knowing how much I get from one day to the other I find locations where the snow doesn't drift.  It doesn't take extraordinarily high guides with a show cover to still act as guides.  I mean everything is relative to the increase in snow depth.  A 3" high guide with bare ground will not dissuade a coyote from working the set, well add 3" of snow to the equation and what do you have?  You have all features pretty much the same size in relation to each other.  The guides are still about 3" higher then the surrounding snow surface and can be described as "bumps".  I've found that coyote don't step on "bumps".  This is maybe one of the hardest concepts(for a better word) for folks to maybe not recognize or understand EXCEPT you cannot set where there is drifting/wind-blown snow!!!  

That's why I mentioned in a previous post about the shift in mindset when snow gets deep, the coyote are coming from somewhere and going someplace but it appears many times during conversations this fact is forgotten.  The awareness of this fact allows for the opportunity to not get yourself locked-up trying to catch coyote under conditions that have changed(snow) and are no longer condusive to maybe a person's favorite set so why fight to keep it working and put up with the frustration where change of location will maybe take the same coyote easier./quicker  If setting on "the SPOT" works, why is it a stretch that conditions can dictate the movement/shift of "the SPOT" when conditions change??.  Hence, TC's reference to cable, me, different type of set over 6" but same principle applies.

If I'm sounding too "right" or too "knowledgeable" it isn't my intent.  I'm just trying to share some experiences and observations I've found over the years.

Just to show that I really do trap hay once in a while.  This location is a "SPOT" and has been since I found it some years ago.
Walk-thru set
Click to play

[trappnman]

when we talk about snow, the only effect of it (beyond mechanicals at sets) that matters, is does it change the behavior and range of coyotes.

the number 1 food of coyotes here, over a 4 season scat check study, showed it to be voles.

and other grassland rodents such as mice, gophers were also in list of food items- so its a safe bet to conclude my coyotes here, spend the majority of their time in grasslands vs woodlands.

the coyotes are still working the fields here with this snow- I'm seeing their diggings, and I'm seeing where they are hunting. the snow hasn't changed there patterns yet.

under those conditions, the evidence I've seen this past weeks, has shown me that I need those visuals- that in a sea of white, in open areas (which is where they still are) s snow covered set is too easily overlooked- and for whatever reason, that open hole look on both on fresh sets (or rather untouched sets) and remakes, is a big stop sign.

I conclude 100% with the statement that the coyote are coming from somewhere and going someplace, and this applies not only to deep snow, but in all other times as well, and it is something I'm always keeping in mind. and without a doubt I agree "the" spot is fluid, and can and does change.....

but I
m not at that point- the spot is still there, the coyotes are still using that spot for multiple reasons (and these present locations were the first ones I set up almost 30 years ago, and pretty much in the same general set areas) now with this snow, as during fall itself.

so while I understand exactly what you are saying- that when deep (habit/pattern changing) snows come, coyotes shift primary locations, and therefore set locations change as well.

what I'm trying to puzzle out is what is the best way, to keep sets open, in snow conditions- where late summer/early fall habits are still ongoing. It would do me no good to move into deep (and concentrating type cover) as the coyotes aren't there in numbers worth pursuing- too many habitat options yet

good discussion-

[Deleted]

Hopefully my style of writting has muddied the waters.  From bare ground up to about 6" of snow I'm still using my set as I did from the start AND as the "spot" in the video, I have and will continue to set that location with snow cover.  That particular set location though is one of a tiny few usual bare-ground locations that has surrounding surface features that really stop or minimize the drifting.  So in that vain, I'm not changing all locations either EXCEPT where a formerly used, bare-ground, out-in-the-open location is prone to drifting.  I think to put this in maybe better context is once I get sustaining snow cover only 1/2 of my sets are scented ones once the snow depth gets up close to 3".  The shift is gradual and controled by the accumulation.

[musher]

Around here, once the snow accumulates the animals are in the bush as there is less snow there. However, they do follow frozen water as the snow is often better packed.

Snares are good but the trails used but they are not the same trails used prior to snow. A fallen weed stem or snow laden bough changes everything. At least you can see the tracks of the animal going around your snare!

[trappnman]

yes...tracks humble you quick!


made the decision- had 1 sat, none yesterday or today but just missed one today (we went away from screens with the dry dirt and peat, and inside jaws with one print...) if I get any next 2 days will pull Friday, if not will pull Thursday- in any case start setting water weds