Targeting Adults

[primitiveman]

Last fall I discussed developing strategies for targeting adult coyotes (in particular females) first when setting up. Without getting into the "why" I would want to do this, I'm curious to hear any thoughts regarding the possibility of this idea. Knowing most of you thought this idea was nonsense, I've researched the topic and have some food for thought.

My personal "research" on my own line revealed mixed results, at best. I did have two locations where I nabbed the adult female first, which made for easy pickins trapping the pups.

Now before you go callin me crazy, I do have some references to some actual research pointing in the direction I'm trying to head....

When reading an excerpt about coyote lure making D. Fagre (1983), he mentions,

"In general, the lure should be attractive to all coyotes, irrespective of sex or age, and there should be little variation to their responses to it. However, a variation of the lure that is selective for a given sex or age class may also be valuable in some management cases."


Here's another I've came across in my readings...again not solid evidence, but possibly pointing in that direction...

Turkowski (1979)

"Analysis of the data from Test 5, comparing ADC-formulated trap lures provided some evidence that specific age groups within a predator population can be selectively attracted with certain lures."

Definitely not the hard evidence I was hoping for, but at least I'm not the only one who holds this theory...

Thoughts???

[trappincoyotes39]

That research you point to is more for summer time control type trapping and wanting to catch the adults as they are the ones doing the live stock depredation until those pups get Mobil and taught how to hunt.

If your trapping in the fall targeting adults will have little bearing on your take, as by that time 50-60 percent will be young of the year coyotes coyotes that are easily attracted to standard offerings ie a dirt hole with a good bait,lure and urine. Suckers for curiosity type offerings. Most coyotes will be, to try and target adult males or females during a normal fall fur trapping deal would be tough to do and what is the reason as to why one would want to try?

Your not going to keep that area void of a adults for any period of time anyhow. Also a percentage of those young coyotes will be Aggressive types and will work most any bait lure offering you put in front of them. I know one well known trapper that said he never used coyote gland lure as it would scare off those young coyotes overall that is pure bunk. To try and maintain the pheromones from a specific coyote in a gland lure would be about impossible to do. many of those govt type lures where synthetic type lures, not a gland lure that uses a is of glands from many coyotes of many ages and both sexes mixed together. No different than the thought process that red fox will shy away from coyote urine, not that I have seen. I have had some aggressive fox come bailing into coyote howls before.

Not to mention that come fall most of those family groups are loosely held together in a normal fall. When those pups reach mid august on they are as Aggressive as their adult parents, calling coyotes can show one a lot about things of this nature. I feel to target adults is something that would be a crap shoot and en narrow that down to adult females? WOW. When you have in many areas 6 out of 10 being young coyotes? I think you will find it en effort in futility in the fall. heck even in the summer when protecting a den of pups at times the dry female can be more Aggressive than the one that whelped the pups.

You should be able to harvest a good portion of coyotes in a given area without targeting adults versus pups but by just setting good locations and nailing them as quick as you can.

Now if you have parvo or mange run through it would stand to reason your population makeup could be more adults in the area your working and would give you a better chance at harvesting more adults first.

Knowing the why and where your trapping and what the goal is would be helpful as well.

[trappnman]

I don't doubt for a minute, that one can make sets, that would appeal to adults more so than other sets would.

but at the same time, I firmly believe that any set that would appeal to an adult, would take the first pup that walked along.

I do not believe that any set, or any lure combination, would appeal to adults, but preclude any appeal to YOY.

I understand your rationale for wanting such a set, and I believe from your posts that is because you believe that if you catch the adults first, then the YOY are then easier to catch.

I personally cannot say I buy into that- I see no real world correlation in what I catch first, having a determination on what I catch next. I DO think that the number of coyotes caught in a small area, can and does have an effect on the remaining population-

I think watching dogs, tells us so much- and watch a litter of puppies- they investigate everything and anything- so catching pups will be easier perhaps than an old veteran that's been around the block

those that follow the forum know I'm convinced that there is a "magic set" that appeals to the majority of coyotes, the majority of time- I think gimmick sets are just that.

to boil the debate down to its very essence and we come up with this-

What set/lures could one use, that would attract adults, but not YOY

and personally, I come up blank-

do you have the link to the studies you mentioned? I'd be curious as to their reasoning

[primitiveman]

The trapping I am referring to is strictly during the early fur season (Oct/Nov) in west central Wisconsin.

Tman eluded to the "why" I would want to target adults first...particularly adult females, thus making it seemingly easier (at least for me) to catch pups in the area.

"come fall most of those family groups are loosely held together in a normal fall"

TC39 I tend to agree with you with this, yet the important part for me is they are still "held together" to some extent, which is why my question arose. Experience on my line has shown that for me on locations I nab an adult female first, several pups fall within the next two nights. Conversely, when I catch a pup first, my results are mixed. That said, I know many of you have not experienced the same pattern, or maybe have not been paying attention to this specific pattern. For me it's been pretty evident.

"You should be able to harvest a good portion of coyotes in a given area without targeting adults versus pups but by just setting good locations and nailing them as quick as you can."

I couldn't agree more; however, I wonder if the "good portion" I am already catching could be more in those locations where I am not taking adult females first?

Tman wrote, "to boil the debate down to its very essence and we come up with this-

What set/lures could one use, that would attract adults, but not YOY

and personally, I come up blank-"

I can't say I disagree with the coming up blank; however, I cannot rule out at least a possibility this may be possible. Odds are, it's not possible...BUT what if it is?

As far as the studies I was referring to I had borrowed some hard copies of Vertebrate Pest Control and Management Materials. I have since returned those but you can google and get previews of the studies....unfortunately some of the pages are missing and I am not willing to pay the $55.

The first is a section from the Vertebrate Pest Control and Management Materials: Fourth Symposium (pp 265-277). To find the preview, google the following search terms: Criteria for the development of coyote lures.

This will take you to a preview of the article (because it's a preview a couple pages are missing). The authors have numerous other studies they are linked to.

The second study can be found by googling: turkowski 1979 testing the responses of coyotes and other predators to odor attractants.

Like I said these are not full studies like I had last fall; however, the discussions I was referring to is found within each.

[trappincoyotes39]

Primitive man really over thinking this I tend to believe. gang set great locations and take the bulk and move on. That is what fur trapping is about and differs from selective removal of family groups when they are tired to a denning situation for sure.

Again you do understand that a big portion of those October coyotes will be pups and bold and aggressive they will work a set. I would be willing to bet the research your looking at was not conducted in the time frame your working. Also what conclusions have come from these studies that have many years of age on them?

What makes central,Wisconsin different than central Missouri or other states in the Midwest? Set good locations and catch coyotes at this time of year a lot more shuffling will take place . Sure in the Midwest home range of family groups is smaller on avg and really nothing beats attire ting more coyotes than a coyote or two already in a trap set, but if your setting two sets per location then your not going to have a chance until a next go around. I agree it can be said that the longer you mess with what is left the harder it can get, but hammer the cream and move on. If you want to take every coyote in smaller given area then mix in things like snares or cable restraints in many Midwest states and calling. The more tools and situations you can provide the more successful you can be working the same area over and over.

I would call if your looking to get rid of adults ahead of the young of the year coyotes would be a very good approach to solve your situation or at least give it some thought.

[primitiveman]

Perhaps I am over thinking the idea of targeting adults first...perhaps not. In both studies I was referencing, the primary focus was not on targeting adults, rather I was simply picking up on some of the side discussion.

I understand that summer coyotes act/react differently than do those in fall/winter, so you have a point there.

"Also what conclusions have come from these studies that have many years of age on them?"

Definitely not implying these two studies are concrete evidence of the answers I am seeking...just presenting studies because I know many here look to these types of studies as justification for what they do (justifiably so).

"I agree it can be said that the longer you mess with what is left the harder it can get, but hammer the cream and move on."

This is exactly why I am trying to perfect my system...I don't want to hang around forever in a spot. I've seen/read enough evidence that supports me staying on a location for 8-10 days (others feel even less....I hope to be that good some day).

Going back to experience on my line, when I don't get the adult female first, I check more empty traps. Maybe the option that makes the most sense is putting more steel in the ground at every location, but I wonder if that is the answer considering those of you who are catching more coyotes every year with fewer traps.

I guess I still have a few months to get this all figured out...

[trappincoyotes39]

Fewer traps because setting less locations is the key. Why spread out 10-14 traps on secondary locations when one could set 6-8 on a top primary location and in a few checks have the bulk of the coyotes? secondary locations won't produce as fast or as long as primary locations will overall. A single set of coyote Tracks that are 4-7 days old mean that location is not the best location as those with fresh tracks and multiple sets and sizes of coyote tracks are.

if you want to catch them fast then your at the mercy of what comes by first and so on, don't think that a caught pup or two from that years litter is going to scare off the adults in most cases, those Sounds will add a lot of great attraction to those adults. Just have the traps there to take advantage of it.

[trappnman]

I understand what you are trying to do primitiveman, and that is to maximize your coyotes in the shortest time.

and you feel that that pathway, involves what coyotes you catch first- that you are convinced, or at least partially so believe- that if you catch the adult first, the pups are easier to catch.

so lets look at what we know about coyote behavior, and how that knowledge translates to actually catching them. First of all, those pups are not pups any longer, but are in that YOY (young of year) class. That litter is by November 6-7 months old, and their actions are no longer puppy actions, but adult actions. I agree with TC's assessment of their behaviors during Nov etc

I've been paying attention, not in so much writing down each sex, age etc and what order they are caught, but more observation that, for me, what order I catch something in is random- could be adults could be pups, could be mixed double. That there is no pattern.

but lets say that the above is true- that overwhelmingly, if you catch momma first, the pups tumble like dominos-

ok, where do you go with that? if the goal is to catch them first, what needs to be done?

you have 3 options that could be variables-

location
lures/bait
set

so the question now becomes, what can I do, vis a vis set type, location of set, and type of bait/lure would shy away/repel/be unnoticed by pups- but be the very opposite with adults?

you could, by way of location, target adults more than pups- but there you probably are talking singular coyotes, and doing so has no benefit to what your quest is. and even that set/location would still take the first pup that came along, but you could increase % of adults, but decrease overall%

To be of worth, the set must be where multiple coyotes come regularly- so location is static

that leaves lures/bait and type of set.

I can think of nothing that would do as you desire- any bait/lure that attracts an adult, is going to attract a YOY coyote- I believe that's a given.

and while I can easily think of ways to catch pups, over adults- I again cannot imagine any set, that would consistently attract adults, but be of no interest to YOY- again,. I take that as a given.

I personally think that your approach to what you really want, is at a dead end- to the path to more coyotes in a shorter time, isn't through selective sets at random locations.

but I DO know your overall goal is possible, and that perfecting that method, will give you exactly what you want.

and to do that, the answer isn't trying to trap by age class, but to set traps where ALL age classes are more apt to be caught.

to do that, one needs two basic beliefs-

1) that somewhere in a coyotes area, there is going to be "the spot" where they stall out the most, where their defenses are lowered, where they feel comfortable and safe.

2) that forget the gimmack sets- sure they work, but by a vast majority, a certain type of set (in my mind big pattern dirtholes) and QUANTITIES of lure/bait are the highest % sets

and I've found that if you ARE on that spot- its bang, bang, bang and 6,7,8 are taken in 4-5 days..........if I'm not on that spot.....then 1-2 or nothing- and those are the locations that without a doubt, sit their 2 weeks and I'd take a couple more coyotes- but I'm not going to stay that long.

recent years have been checking traps 4,5,6 days, depending on what day set, then pulling. But in my mind I wondered- on those good locations- am I missing coyotes because I'm leaving in less than a week? This past year, because of Thanksgiving being a week later, we had an extra few days, so decided to just add 1-2 days on each loop-

well, now I know- those 7-8th days were poor days- I now know that if you are right spot on- that 5-6 days is more than enough, and if I'm not- then might as well move on as well

So IMO, you should alter your direction so to not worry about targeting an age class first, but concentrate location and presentation as to offer a strong appeal to the sets.

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2014 8:49:36 GMT -6 trappnman said:

and I've found that if you ARE on that spot- its bang, bang, bang and 6,7,8 are taken in 4-5 days..........if I'm not on that spot.....then 1-2 or nothing- and those are the locations that without a doubt, sit their 2 weeks and I'd take a couple more coyotes- but I'm not going to stay that long.

recent years have been checking traps 4,5,6 days, depending on what day set, then pulling. But in my mind I wondered- on those good locations- am I missing coyotes because I'm leaving in less than a week? This past year, because of Thanksgiving being a week later, we had an extra few days, so decided to just add 1-2 days on each loop-

well, now I know- those 7-8th days were poor days- I now know that if you are right spot on- that 5-6 days is more than enough, and if I'm not- then might as well move on as well

Not to detract from the intent of the thread but a question comes to mind from the quote and what you wrote sort of fits a question Bogio had on a previous thread.
You set the location because what you saw and ascertained was that the location was "The Spot".  With your experience, have you thought about what caused that location to not be "The Spot"?
What made the location "appear" to be the Spot and give you a false reading?

[trappnman]

well, its not really that the location misleads me, its that I continue to want to add locations that are the spot type locations- meaning multiple groups stall out in the same place, on a regular basis. and if those locations aren't obviously there, I tend to determine whats 2nd best

look at it this way- the key is large, singular attractions- here, its deadpiles, compost piles, manure dumps and bale yards. All offer consistent food sources.

in certain areas of my lines, these locations are obvious- the attraction is visible, its a beacon for miles around, lesser attractions aren't present- and at those places, its easy for me to find, if not the absolute best THE spot, to be close enough where the results are comparable by being pretty close to the exact location I need to be in-

and sometimes this is obvious as well- terrain, elevation, continuity of fields, adjoining cover (come-from areas), dominate wind direction where I can say....must be there- and sign shows me, yes, this is the place.

which is why, I believe, my east and west loops produce 1/2 of my total coyotes

Now, on my other 3 loops- much smaller farms and even the big dairys, are surrounded by mom and pop operations, and everyone has cows and its a mixed crop type farming- rather than the corn/hay of the bigger flat land operations.

So instead of the large singular attractions I have elsewhere, here I have multiple, repeated attractions.

Similar to a town having 1 café- everyone goes, if someone's out to lunch....you pretty much know the spot

compared to a big town with a café on every corner- if someone went to lunch, you don't know where to start looking.

So...I'm trying to lower the odds, by looking for certain things that I feel will attract the most coyotes in the area, to it sooner rather than later- and sometimes I'm right, sometimes wrong.

and that criteria is as listed above- the surrounding terrain (where I think the majority are "coming" from) and how that is in relationship to the attraction (such as it is)-

sometimes I pick the right café, sometimes not

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2014 13:51:52 GMT -6 trappnman said:

well, its not really that the location misleads me, its that I continue to want to add locations that are the spot type locations- meaning multiple groups stall out in the same place, on a regular basis. and if those locations aren't obviously there, I tend to determine whats 2nd best

look at it this way- the key is large, singular attractions- here, its deadpiles, compost piles, manure dumps and bale yards. All offer consistent food sources.

in certain areas of my lines, these locations are obvious- the attraction is visible, its a beacon for miles around, lesser attractions aren't present- and at those places, its easy for me to find, if not the absolute best THE spot, to be close enough where the results are comparable by being pretty close to the exact location I need to be in-

and sometimes this is obvious as well- terrain, elevation, continuity of fields, adjoining cover (come-from areas), dominate wind direction where I can say....must be there- and sign shows me, yes, this is the place.

which is why, I believe, my east and west loops produce 1/2 of my total coyotes

Now, on my other 3 loops- much smaller farms and even the big dairys, are surrounded by mom and pop operations, and everyone has cows and its a mixed crop type farming- rather than the corn/hay of the bigger flat land operations.

So instead of the large singular attractions I have elsewhere, here I have multiple, repeated attractions.

Similar to a town having 1 café- everyone goes, if someone's out to lunch....you pretty much know the spot

compared to a big town with a café on every corner- if someone went to lunch, you don't know where to start looking.

So...I'm trying to lower the odds, by looking for certain things that I feel will attract the most coyotes in the area, to it sooner rather than later- and sometimes I'm right, sometimes wrong.

and that criteria is as listed above- the surrounding terrain (where I think the majority are "coming" from) and how that is in relationship to the attraction (such as it is)-

sometimes I pick the right café, sometimes not

Since literally ALL of my properties are as you described as "multiple, repeated attractions" I agree completely but find the main problem actually being that the right cafe' (spot) may be on an adjacent property that I have no permission or access to!  This same concept is also true when trapping large (20 sq miles)  of unbroken(roadless but not necessarily trackless) tracts of wooded lands but on a larger scale where the attraction (spot) is allusive due to lack of access so I rely much on year-round scouting augmented by finding the travel-ways and logging trail/ridge crossings.  None of these are usually "The SPOT" in themselves BUT in some instances, certain terrain features will make some them the "spot" though not necessarily a "stall-out" location.

[trappnman]

then the job becomes, not so much where is the location with overlaps (because there might well not be overlaps) but where is the spot on that general location, where innate behaviors are such they allow he coyote to confidently work your set.

because 90% of coyote troubles at the set, IMO, are caused by his innate behaviors working against you. And in that I include set type.

standbacks, circling, working from back, walk bys, look and go, digging- all caused, again IMO, by the set type, and where that set is within the coyotes range

[Deleted]

The "easy-peasy" set locations are very evident in winter in the large, trackless areas at which time the use of scent and the stopping them with scented sets is irrelevant. So in the fall and early winter the need to work the small properties with multiple attraction locations is a fact of life.  If I find there is no "spot"(stall-out) on a property and without access to adjoining properties that "may have the SPOT" I set the travel-ways on that property AND locations that I feel may very well be not necessarily a stall-out but maybe a little spot where I feel the coyotes gravitating to shuffle across or through it. I mean in order to justify setting any trap on a property there has to be coyote using that property in some manner.  Maybe not in the manner I like but in a manner in which I can stop them to work my sets.
Clear as mud?I 

[trappincoyotes39]

Funny I have found most great locations are not the hard access spots at all, in fact opposite of that.................... Large tracts of ground holds lots of coyotes but the best locations I have found are not way back in all of that unbroken ground the majority of the time and I am talking areas that are 6 miles long and 5 miles deep with no Traveled roads going through any of it, with that in kind the great locations are within a mile of something and access not much of an issue come fall time. Denning can and at times will be a different story due to where your working and what coyotes are causing issues, but again many of those are within easy reach by road or two track trail.

Some key factors to look for for sure, but I have had many coyotes den within 1/4 mile of a hwy and most are within 1 mile of some travel way that is accessible even with a ton of unbroken ground.

[Deleted]

 Just as I've explained that my area is vastly different from Steve's, I don't know what you've got down there either and you can only guess what I have here!  The one thing I see TC that you may not understand in my area is property ownership and the permission to access or are you walking the mile because that's exactly how you'd be doing it here!!!  No 4x4's or quads allowed+ you can walk or run sled + snares are illegal + no permission from majority of surrounding private properties= no trap!!  Is that funny or what? LMAO

[trappnman]

I'm surprised the deer hunters don't get you almost unlimited permission

[Deleted]

Jun 30, 2014 16:10:44 GMT -6 trappnman said:

I'm surprised the deer hunters don't get you almost unlimited permission

Those weenies are deer hunting from the middle of September to the 1st of January on private property and through the 3rdweek of  December on State!!!  VERY serious stuff here AND the vast majority of the private property borders the large tracts of State lan is deer hunting property/clubs.  To trap coyote the trapper gets pushed or shingled further and further away from the fall and winter coyote's food source.  Soooooo, you learn to adapt!  You can find yourself pushed so far that the next thing you'll see is that when you're standing in the middle of a section there's nothing to see but chisel-plowed ground.

Last two years I've had several property owners adjacent to the properties I had permission to trap on complain I was bothering their deer hunting while checking my traps and one of the property owners rescinded my permission because I wouldn't check my traps  until 1:00 pm.  AND we worry about finding "The Spot"??

[trappincoyotes39]

Never doesn't' matter really if the areas western SD on large ranches or in the Midwest in Missouri that changes little really. I don't walk the mile so to speak, if people will not give me access then I move on. deer hunting is big business here as well and so was big game Andy bird hunting in SD, sure we can adapt but the primary deer deal is the tirty point buck hunters and if people want some coyotes removed or if they give me permission then I expect reasonable access or move on to better areas. Simple really for me.

In Mo no snares but cable restraints loved my kill snares in SD a great tool for coyote removal for sure, but again your taking macro location and breaking it down to that micro location of multiple use, if at sits on ground that isn't available then one has a few options, A. For get about it and move on to greener pastures,B setup ways to draw those coyotes ie bait stations . each trapper has to decide what are those coyotes worth to you.

I had it easy in SD workings a few fall calve guys and also some late lamb killing easy access for me, but even when I fur trapped out there the deal was I need reasonable access to trap. In western SD guys own 3,000-50,000 acres of ground so permission was far easier even than my do horns on the eastern side where the avg farm goes a section of so of ground.

I would map out my areas of interest and check those places first depending on how the land laid and work from there and if to much a PITA then forget them and go onto the next great location.

trying to draw or attract a majority of coyotes off THE LOCATION at times can be very difficult if talking some distance,also heavy pressure like a back to back rifle antelope and deer season can place on them, would then change the spot for sure at times as well. Some great areas hunting pressure just doesn't apply due to the location itself. Not ideal for deer harvesting.

[trappnman]

we should always worry about "the spot"

take any sized acreage-

one either believes that all parts of it are the same vis a vis catch %, or one thinks that micro locations are important- meaning even on something rated as poor coyote habitat, etc- one spot will be better than another to set traps

THE spot involved overlapping territories, and they occur only with reason ie 50 cows

[Deleted]

I'm not complaining TC because I've adapted to what and how I can work the area I want to trap. That's why I agreed with that one particular comment of Steve's. What I take issue with is when someone wants to tell me how to use my area but hasn't ever been in it let alone tried to trap it. Notice I said area. By that I mean there is a specific area in which I trap and that area is bound in a time frame. I think Steve has mentioned previously (I could be wrong) that his loops are quite lengthy in comparison to mine and time equates to miles. So within my area I sort of glean the coyotes using the properties within the realm of their availability to me within my time frame and /or the time frame of the owners. My goal has always been to kill as many coyotes as I can within a prescribed area. That's why I used the word "glean" because that's what I try to do using locations as Steve described.