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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 29, 2011 17:28:05 GMT -6
tman you would needa very small dog to get a foot in a dagger so the push/pull means little to being a DP. Any stated should allow a push/pull DP with sufficant depth to the trigger for rats and mink would be nill, I could see if the trigger push/pull was 3/4" down the tube but they are not they are deeper than that so to state it allows water trapping for coons it should anyhow with any DP currently in production as your rat/mink take will be nill even with the dagger.
States should get a rule change if they can't use a dagger but can other trap types to say a dagger is any "worse" because it has a push trigger is like saying a pull trigger type only 1/2" deep is acceptable? The odds are about the same for non target catches if you ask me, slim to none in the dagger for sure.
Musty sounds like the dagger fits your laws, commercially enclosed trigger is what they have, just two reaction points down or up.
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Post by motrapperjohn on Nov 29, 2011 19:56:15 GMT -6
I think I said it right, the trapped animal cant reach the water. If he is 6" away its legal. is that not correct.
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Post by bblwi on Nov 29, 2011 21:03:33 GMT -6
No with a pull trigger commercially made enclosed trigger trap you can set the trap in the water or more likely on wet trails with water after rains etc. such as ditches, small feeder streams etc.
Bryce
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Post by mustelameister on Nov 30, 2011 6:46:06 GMT -6
here's what works for me:  |
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Post by trappnman on Nov 30, 2011 7:13:45 GMT -6
isn't the proof in the pudding TC?
the size and trigger type- is what MAKES the traps "dog proof"
are you telling me, that you don't think an otter could get caught in a dp trap? pack them with fish, and place in otter territory with a push trigger- and I'd bet the farm, you would take otter. and the possibility certianly exists to take rats, etc as well.
you seem to forget- that being able to use dps in water EARLY, was a concession to trappers AND the type of trap. Its not taking away anything, but instead granting EXTRA time and opportunity.
if having this priviledge to trap early means no push triggers- so what?
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Post by CoonDuke on Nov 30, 2011 7:25:05 GMT -6
The problem with it is the trapping community shouldn't accept bull$hit shoved down their throats with no research or field experience to back it. So far I know of zero muskrats being caught in DPs anywhere.
It is one thing to be proactive with regs concerning conflicts with the public but rats in DPs??? Next Wisconsin will be making regs to protect unicorns. I cannot get rats to even swim up to lure or apples...I don't know what I would have to do to get them to work a DP!
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Post by trappnman on Nov 30, 2011 7:47:17 GMT -6
first of all- don't focus on "rats"
because its not about "rats"
nobody, except here perhaps, is trying to make the case its "rats'
its quite simple-
#1- WI opens trapping in water, meaning otter, beaver, mink, rats and being allowed to trap other animals IN water, at a certain date.
#2 coon trappers convinced the DNR, that they should be allowed to trap IN WATER, earlier than the true water opener, with DP traps, FOR COON and this was because they convinced the DNR, that a "dog proof" trap, was incapable of TAKING ANY OTHER SPECIES OF FUR-BEARER.
#3- this exception, was designed to protect ALL other species from being trapped before opener
#4- after the 2 weeks (or whatever), when water opens, then ANY type of dp trap may be used- push, pull, circle, this or that-
would beaver work a dp? maybe- I don't know, but do know how dexterous their front feet are. Same with otter- I "know" that a dp packed with fish would take otter.
as far as rats not working dps- I don't have a clue- but do know, that i take a bunch of them at pipes, with coon lure in the pipes- so the interest in coon lure, is readily apparent.
I'd guess, 99% of the dps in use, are PULL triggers. thus, the take of incidentals should be very small.
certainly making a push trigger, would take some incidentals muskrats as well- I cannot believe that it would not happen................. but thats STILL besides the point-
and that point is- that to have this EXTRA season in water so to speak- the goal is to have ZERO incidentals taken before water season opens.
perhaps in a few years, when enough PUSH triggers have been in use in water, the point will be moot- that adding a push trigger, increases incidentals not at all-
but until that has been proven- and in no way or no how has it been proven yet- I see it as nothing but a benefit to TRAPPERS WHO CHOOSE TO USE DP TRAPS, to be able to trap early even if they are forced to use a pull trigger only.
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Post by CoonDuke on Nov 30, 2011 8:17:55 GMT -6
Point taken. Similar situation with cable restraints really.
But my point is/was that there is no evidence that a push trigger is going to catch any more non targets...so why regulate?
PA did a similar thing. Put restrictions on DP devices on opening size when a trapper could legally set a jake trap right beside the DP. Nuts!
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Post by trappnman on Nov 30, 2011 9:24:46 GMT -6
I think CD, that when the law went into effect, a push trigger wasn't even thought of- that the dp traps out there, had pull triggers, and they just went with that. If the traps out there a couple of years ago were all push/pull- I think the reg would read that way.
I'd imagine that it will be changed in a year or two
personally, i have more issue with the "commercially made" standard- why couldn't homemade be allowed as well? many designs can be made easily, by someone (not me lol) thats handy with a welder
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Post by mustelameister on Nov 30, 2011 9:25:58 GMT -6
But my point is/was that there is no evidence that a push trigger is going to catch any more non targets...so why regulate? Steve hit it right on the head. Fellow trappers that are working DPs in the water before the rat/mink opener are more than happy they have that option. We do not perceive that early water 'coon opener as being "regulated". No evidence. Well, I 'spose there isn't much evidence for many reasons. But I will agree with Steve on the potential of catching otter down here with a push trigger dogproof. Pack that tube with jack mack and set on the shoreline and you will have an otter. Guaranteed. I see more otter tracks on any given shoreline or sandbar in this stretch than I do 'coon tracks. Maybe WI DNR did not foresee push type triggers. Maybe they did, and they worded it to be pull types for the nontarget incidentals. Maybe they did or didn't, and didn't word it correctly in the regs for it to be pull type only. I don't know. What I do know is I trapped 'coon in the water for two full weeks this season before the mink/rat season opened. I'll take that. If that's perceived by some as being too "regulated", so be it. |
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Post by Wright Brothers on Nov 30, 2011 9:30:22 GMT -6
If the Dagger bothers younz with the push trigger, set it to the further notch for pull only. Least that's my take on it. But I'm sure I'm missing something with this dilema.
Carlis thanks I got the parts, installed, set, and collected another coon this AM. In kitty country, with fruity bait. I don't know how the coon could remove that heavy dog. Unless like you said the crimp may have been missed (by me too), unlikely, but stuff happens, we're only human. Thanks again, see ya at a rondy.
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Post by mustelameister on Nov 30, 2011 9:33:14 GMT -6
Maybe WI DNR did not foresee push type triggers. Maybe they did, and they worded it to be pull types for the nontarget incidentals. Maybe they did or didn't, and didn't word it correctly in the regs for it to be pull type only. To clarify the above here is the DNR definition of an enclosed trigger trap: Enclosed Trigger Trap—means any trap with a pull-activated trigger located inside an enclosure and recessed 1¼ inches or more from an opening that is no greater than 1¾ inches in diameter.So a push/pull trigger still has a pull-activated trigger system. For what it's worth. My guess is this will be reworded next year as "pull-activated only" for beaver dams and pre mink/rat season usage. |
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Post by calvin on Nov 30, 2011 9:37:09 GMT -6
Has anyone ever caught an otter in one (push, pull, two way, nine way)? Seems a lot of guys running them with 2 way triggers (me included). If was going to happen would have by now. Not saying it hasn't...has it? Not theories, Facts.
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Post by CoonDuke on Nov 30, 2011 9:54:18 GMT -6
I think CD, that when the law went into effect, a push trigger wasn't even thought of- that the dp traps out there, had pull triggers, and they just went with that. If the traps out there a couple of years ago were all push/pull- I think the reg would read that way. I'd imagine that it will be changed in a year or two personally, i have more issue with the "commercially made" standard- why couldn't homemade be allowed as well? many designs can be made easily, by someone (not me lol) thats handy with a welder I pretty much agree with you. I am extremely anal about the way regs are worded...reason being is that many other states will "copy" existing regs Look at cable restraints. I commend PA for modifying the original cable restraint "package" into a much better tool for trappers. Many times it does not get better and trappers are forced to work with the status quo. With DPs being the newest thing, more states are going to jump on the bandwagon to define them. The definitions set from the first states are the most important as they will be the ones mirrored. One final thing...I would bet that 90% of trappers using DP traps today are doing so because of the speed and efficiency of them...not the fact that they are dog proof. I fear that states will try to define them as being as dog proof as humanly possible and only a small number of these traps are being used for that purpose. |
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Post by mustelameister on Nov 30, 2011 9:57:23 GMT -6
One final thing...I would bet that 90% of trappers using DP traps today are doing so because of the speed and efficiency of them...not the fact that they are dog proof. I fear that states will try to define them as being as dog proof as humanly possible and only a small number of these traps are being used for that purpose. Maybe we should quit calling them dogproof and describe them as enclosed trigger traps. |
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Post by Wright Brothers on Nov 30, 2011 9:58:30 GMT -6
I caught an opossum in one if that counts. I have only ever saw one otter. Watched him for two years then gone. Luckily that was pre-DP lol.
Fact. Carlis figured an ingenious way of making the trap push/pull.
Theory. Some are jealous that their pet trap doesn't have em.
"set it to the further notch for pull only" But younz wont, as that would limit the take.
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Post by thebeav2 on Nov 30, 2011 10:30:16 GMT -6
All my Dps are pull only and I don't see my catch being limited because of It.
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Post by gcs on Nov 30, 2011 12:35:52 GMT -6
Same here, set them on coon..and you catch coon, how do you make that better?,  |
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Post by Wright Brothers on Nov 30, 2011 13:28:27 GMT -6
If all you have are pull triggers how would you compare?
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Post by Steve Gappa on Nov 30, 2011 13:52:00 GMT -6
calvin- i'm not saying many or even any otter have been caught. But in good otter country, after seeing how inqusitive otter are- and they use their paws a lot like coon getting into and under things- I just cannot see how you would avoid otter with a push trigger.
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