Jack Mackerel ?

[trappnman]

sometimes it can be a bugger, but I just take a narrow needlenose, grab the tube about 1/3 of an inch up, put a screwdriver under base of trigger outside of trap to hold it up and then can force it on, most times pretty easily then take the needle nose and "scootch" it along the trigger.

[fishdaddy]

im not sure about tasting bait..how do we know that what tastes good to a human tastes good to a coon.in ohio i caught lots of coon on lennons fox lure.

[thebeav2]

In what kind of sets did you use this lure?
I have caught 1000s of coon In fox and coyote sets. The lure drew them Into the set they didn't necessarily taste the lure.
With Dps you want them to interact with the bait/lure. And In my opinion It needs to taste good.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman Good rat lure on a stream can be of value when you want them to come to you and where you want to put traps versus all of the areas they are likely to visit. Small rivers/streams I have found value to vertical banks and a good rat lure. Years ago poke a stick, trap out front and deeper water to put rats down. Saved time and worked really well over pockets or in areas with less water.

I agree one doesn't need rat lure to catch rats but at times rat lure can be a time saver and put rats in certain spots for you in a qucik and efficant manner.

I'm liking the design of the dagger with the shape and the trigger being a circle and really filling up the area inside the sq stock, add to it a push/pull design and I'm hoping to find them to be more efficant than a thin bar and needing and upward pull to work each and every time. I think this design may be less partial to bait than one where it is pull up only. Time in the field with them will show me I guess.

[thebeav2]

I'm 100% In agreement on the rat lure. On a rat hut you normally have ONE pull out. So you set one trap, but with lure you can put rats at multiple spots on that hut and In some cases with a big hut I might have 5 traps on that hut with all 5 sets lured. It works to put the rats where you want them.

I'm hearing mixed results on the circle triggers and their effectiveness. Never really gave them much of a test since the standard pull type trigger has preformed well for me.

[trappnman]

TC- We will have to disagree on this-

you are not going to get rats to come further than they were coming to come- meaning they have small territories, that are well used. when food habitat makes an area want, the rats move slightly to fresh ground, often moving mere feet at one end or the other- its a constant back and forth on streams, as habitat is eaten.

of any animal, rats are the easiest to pattern, if rats are there- they are going to get caught, with or without lure. and even travelers, will go to the same locations as the removed homebodies.

I don't believe you can 'lure" rats very far at all unless maybe in spring.

a lot can be learned, after the run and gunning has stopped.

its almost impossible, to test rat lure by using it to begin setting. if you go to new location, and catch 10 rats in 10 traps with or without lure, you learn nothing.

or if you set up one set with lure, one with nothing- you really don't learn anything either-

but when you go into a location- and take the local rats out in good fashion- then do this:

now add lure- does it give you more rats compared to locations where you don't lure?

now I'm not going to debate run and gunning rats- cause there for sure lure is not needed- you don't run and gun low populations-

but my method of winter trapping includes trapping nomad rats.

and I've never seen where, after taking out the local rats, does adding lure to sets give you any higher % of nomad rats (the ones that would be, if lure does indeed add rats, the rats that would be added)

and over my 50+ years of rat and water trapping, I've used turnips, potatoes, apple, carrots, greens, many lures including all mentioned previously, spearmint oil, anise oil, toothpaste, peppermint oil, mint candies, etc.

and none of what I tried, ever showed me any expected increase in rats.

beav- you got theory, and practice. I know that procoon in a dp, pocket or pipe, is no deterrent. I don't have to wonder- will its bitter taste repel coon and reduce my catch?

cause, experience tells me- no, it does not. and most of my coon trapping lately is on snow- I can SEE what occurs.

I'm guessing, you haven't used much inedible lure in dps or coon sets in general- that you are a chunk of fish or rat man, and thats fine. It works good.

but you seeing your dog react to procoon, gave you the conclusion that if a coons lips touched such, he was gone-

I know, from running a full time coon line BC (before coyotes) where I wasn't catching 3000 coon a year, or 2000 or even 1000 coon a year but I was catching many years in that 700-900 category, plus full time minking, that I saw no success rate % change, when going from a lure AND separate, mostly edible bait- to pure lure and then lure in fish oil.

coon were and are, my money fur- trust me, that back then I kept careful records- lure, bait every darn thing- and if there would have been a decrease, I would have known, and corrected it.

none occurred- farms that were 15-20 coon farms- still gave me 15-20 in the same time frame. farms that gave me 10, still gave me 10 and so forth.

when I first used Griz's, I used my lure fish oil- and there, I had no success until I painted them white (upland, lots of leaves). but when I painted them- I began catching coon steady in them. To be honest, I don;t like the lack of opportunity on incidentals with dps- I want that mink/rat in water sets, and that fox/coyote/mink incidental on land.

I've used jack mackerel, stefs paste bait, mattjones bait, reds bait, ground homemade fish paste at times and all took coon and felt all were good baits, but none any better than a lure/fish oil mix.

is it really the consensus, that the only attraction of lure or bait, is a food response? and if that response is not satisfied, that the urge to "get at" the source of the lure, dissipates?

I don't believe that for a second.

[trappincoyotes39]

Tman I'm not talking bringing rats along ways, I'm talking what rats are there, bringing them 10ft or so to where I want "them" in my traps. Lures have helped me do this years ago, in a fast and simple manner. Stick on a verticle bank lured up and a trap out from with simple guiding, the lure brought them to those spots for me. I didn't have to hunt around on the rocks looking for all the top spots I could bring the majority in where I wanted them to get caught, sure I set the places they showed me as well, but I was quicker along streams and small rivers with lure than with out.

Each to their own but the amount needed and benefits are worth it to ME. Specially when talking 6.00+ rats I will use what ups my take in a timely fashion. I have 6 ponds lined up so far, I will set all the bank dens I can find then use lured sets for those that don't find a 110. The faster I can clean them out the better.

[trappnman]

TC, if you are within 10 feet of rats and think lure will catch more quicker, then you go ahead and use lure. Using lure gives you confidence, and thats half the game.

I trap many areas with vertical clay banks- zero rat sign anywheres close- a cutout along the waterline on those banks, produce consistently, and constantly- on rats is ALL location. they are 100% predictible.

if rats don't show you- YOU show them-

you got an all rock rip rap bank- take 3-4 rocks and make a cubby, every rat passing will stop in. or roll one rock into the water if possible, leaving a rats width between it and the bank- or place a small stick in the water WITHOUT lure- and rats will now use that "tunnel" between it and the bank, or put i na pipe, or toss a log over the bank- generally, set locations in permanent rock are easy to find and can be used year after year.

lots and lots of ways to make rat structure if needed in a few seconds or less- often times no more thna making a depression i nthe bank.......certainly no more time than digging out a lure bottle and dipping that stick into it.

btw- you got some procoon- try that- I take rats each check off of procoon.

[thebeav2]

I know, from running a full time coon line BC (before coyotes) where I wasn't catching 3000 coon a year, or 2000 or even 1000 coon a year but I was catching many years in that 700-900 category, plus full time minking, that I saw no success rate % change, when going from a lure AND separate, mostly edible bait- to pure lure and then lure in fish oil.

"The above statement I assume means you were pocket setting NO DPS"



when I first used Griz's, I used my lure fish oil- and there, I had no success until I painted them white (upland, lots of leaves). but when I painted them- I began catching coon steady in them. To be honest, I don;t like the lack of opportunity on incidentals with dps- I want that mink/rat in water sets, and that fox/coyote/mink incidental on land.

If your dead on location the the bait /lure should do the trick. Adding EYE appeal tells me you were not on location.

I must trap different then because trapping mink on purpose costs me money. When I run a coon line It's totally Dps and 160s run and gun every trail and every tube don't get more then 20 yards from the truck.

When I trap rats in the fall It's all marsh trapping I don't want to catch mink or coon.

Then when Dec rolls around I'm In the water and I'll target rats and coon and mink are Incidentals since I don't make mink sets per say.

When mink were king I trapped completely different.

My lure application Isn't theory It's fact. You can place 50 traps under water around a rat hut but If you don't give them a reason to go there your not going to catch them AND THAT'S A FACT.

I also ran over 100 dps last season and I will still use a edible Bait because It did better then anything else and that's fact not theory.

Raspberry pie filling and honey In the early part of the season and Jack and barbecue sauce In the later part of the season.

Calvin all those baits are edible especially the raspberry pie filling. And jack and barbecue sauce on wheat bread Is hard to beat for a late afternoon snack

[calvin]

Yeah...I/ll be the guy in the ditch will pie filling all over my face now. When someone gets a little too nosy and pulls over to see what I/m doing, I/ll hold up a bloody coon, give em an eerie 3 mile gaze with an awkward grin while licking my lips. Bet they'll forget what they stopped for.

I did try a couple lures on the floats last spring. One was a rat gland lure and the other Lenons rat lure. I don't believe either had any effect...and possibly a slight repelling effect. I quite using them.

Baits seemed to work better during the spring. Cut baits and certain types of grasses on the floats. With very little green out early spring and being under the ice all winter, this made sense. Some baits worked better than others but anything bright colored drew them in it seemed. The most common used was the carrot. However, I found that carrots didn't get eaten much more than a couple nips out of it. They liked the color but not the flavor so much.

I have used rat lure less and less over the years in the fall. I did have one place that was a beach type setting. Sand slope into deep water. A stick dipped in lure and a trap in front of the stick took some rats here. I keep a bottle handy in case I can't figure out how else to do it...but I/m not the best at blind setting like some so sometimes I just need the help.

Lenons coyote lure: I have tried a few of them. The most poplular ones (Coyote Super Range all Call) didn't do what I wanted. Not that it doesn't work wonders for others....just not for me so much. However, 2 years ago we had that super wet corn year. NONE of my tried and true lures did squat (the first week anyhow) and I saw they were eating 100% corn. Was about ready to start dumping sweet corn down the hole but went to the lure shelf and started sniffing (no eating this time) lures for something different. I came across the jar of Lenons Bobcat past lure that he told me to try. It had a sweet smell to it...so I tried it. The coyotes hit it right away and continued to do so. Same results last year in a more normal crop year.

I tried Lenons Natures call lures on my posts. Same deal....they loved it and often times carried the post away. I won't put anything else on a post set anymore. But I/m just a novelty coyote guy.

[trappnman]

beav- just so there is no misunderstanding on my part-

you believe you need lure, to consistently catch rats ON houses?

[thebeav2]

If you read my post It says I can move the rats with lure to any part of the house and not just set the pull outs. When I go Into a marsh I want to take all the rats as fast as I can so I can move on. That means I gang set each and every hut. And lure puts the rats where I want them It's that simple. Sure I can catch rats on the house with out lure but It just takes longer that way and I'm not spending a week In the marsh to kill all the rats. Three checks with my methods and you have taken over 90% of the rats. Last year on my main marsh I took 406 rats off the marsh In three checks, gang setting and lure did It for me.

Why do you use lure for coyotes fox and coon and beaver? Rat trapping Is no different.

[calvin]

Beav, do you use the punch in set on the huts (or maybe illegal in Wi).?If so do you think lure increases your catch?

[thebeav2]

Calvin that's a grey area In WI It says you can't disturb or molest any rat house or feed hut. So a punch In type set could be construed as molesting the hut. I don't belive any warden would pinch you for It but you never know.

I know that lure In the fall In rat marshes will Increase my daily catch. Could I catch them with out lure sure I could. It would just take longer. And like my above post say's
I want to catch as many rats I can at each check so I can get on to the next location.
Lure puts the the rats where I want them to be. Point In case. If you have lots of windy weather and lots of debris being pushed up on the side of the hut where the pull outs are located your traps are going to plugged. The rats are still going to use the wind ward side but your traps are of no use. So with the use of lure I can move those rats around to the lee side of the hut where my traps will be operational.

So yes I know lure increases my catch.

[calvin]

OK, Got it. Man, trapping is tough over there. Seems as if someone is trying hard to save the rats. I guess a punch in could be "disturbing". More disturbing that you can't use that effective method. Under those circumstances, I/d be using the lure, too. Can you use bait? Do you? I have used potato/apple slices soaked in lure overnight. Slices placed wherever a rat could see it...with the lure already soaked in.

[RdFx]

As a seven year old without anyone helping me when i set rat traps i used cut apples, potatoes, anything white to catch rats. Didnt have money for lure and did very well. This was during fall trapping. Under ice now i use a piece of white plastic on body grip triggers, works great....so one has to assume the color white means food to a rat....like this past weekend was showing students in trappers ed if they didnt have lure or white cut bait a grass with white roots showing does great in drawing rats to thier sets...... and thier skinning rats for put up showed it works.... now spring time when trapping spring bvr i catch alot of incidental rats with just popple sticks cut showing the white underneath.....so one can assume to some extent white color does attract rats...

[trappincoyotes39]

I agree with Beav on this, lure helps speed up the process of removing rats as quick as one can and as mentioned various times move those rats where a trapper wants them to be. That to me and others makes rat lure a worth while exspense. Just as other lures some are better at doing this than others, and again I use the wind to my advantage with them just as any other species.

Beav hit on it, we use lure on many species for the exact same reasons as rats to move them and get them to investigate where the trap is really no different. I could trail set for all species and have caught doing so, but lures/baits add efficantcy and put things more in the trappers favor alot of times.

[trappnman]

I disagree 100%- esp on rat houses.

I know lure, does NOT increase my catch. I'll take those rats as fast without lure, as with,. proved it many times.

first of all TC- you say, you aren't trying to move rats far, you are trying to move them 10 feet. and again I say- if you are within 10 feet of them, KNOWLEDGE is as good as LURE.

keep an open mind. TRY both ways.

There is NO animal easier to pattern than muskrats- there is no animal, thats as easily predictible as rats. There is no animal easier to understand insofar as daily movements. Even nomad rats, are such for a reason- they aren't moving randomly.

In no other trapping, at least for me, can I set X number of traps, and be able to tell you how many rats I'll have the next day, almost to the rat.

-------------------------------------

If you read my post It says I can move the rats with lure to any part of the house and not just set the pull outs. When I go Into a marsh I want to take all the rats as fast as I can so I can move on. That means I gang set each and every hut. And lure puts the rats where I want them

I gang set every house as well- on good active ones, as many as 5-6. I got the same results, with unlured sets.

You got rat houses? Then the rats are already where I want them.

easy old school set at houses-

take a willow, slash it down leaving a white strip above waterline, and a cut strip to insert a 1.5 long spring.

Place it at a 45 slant so white strip is above water, on the top of the angle- trap just under surface-

lure it or not- it works the same, and for those wondering, "old scholars", didn't lure, the strip AND the angle, were what mattered and made it a quick (poles prepared and flagged ahead of time) and very effective marsh set for rats.

beav, if slicking up a rat houses is considered a disturbance, then so would be setting a trap on it- make slick outs around the house, and you don't need lure- its a rats behaviour, to investigate such places. a standard rat set up on open water hoses, is to set 3-5 traps around that house, at the pullouts, AND at the slicked up places-

so you beav, set lure at traps you set on one side, I'd guess, since the lure is "bringing them around"............ or do you set traps on all sides?

------------------------------------------------------

If numbers are the concern for the debate, I'll match my lifetime take of rats and years trapping rats against any mans here. Been there, done that for, to be exact, 53 years. I've done the big marshes, I've done under ice, I've done houses, I've done small rivers and I've done spring creeks and ponds. Only thing I've never done, is spring float season. so you will never hear any debate or opinions concenring that niche.

no brag, just plain fact- lived on the river all my life. Started skinning rats before I even trapped them- I think happiest day of dad's life was when he got a "free" skinner. I srtill, and I think of this every time i skin rats, my saying to Dad- I just can't get the head done nice and he'd say "just keep at it Stevie, you will'

and yes dad, i did!

-----------------------------------
Rats aren't "many species" and thus, cannot be lumped into a class that includes coyotes and cats- they are MUSKRATS. its silly to talk about moving rats "where a trapper wants them to be" as something that can be done only by lure- when altering location DOES THE SAME, THE VERY SAME thing.

now I know, the next post will say "but I don't want to take all that time" - lets be real for a minute, if you are a good rat trapper, altering landscape, takes LESS time in most instances, then digging out a lure bottle, breaking off a stick, etc- so lets not go there-

improving rat location, takes mere seconds if needed-

beav- we were talking the other day, about a method at rat houses, that was, according to the guy you heard it from, the cats meow for taking rats quickly off of house with no disturances and NO lure- and we both agreeed it sounded great. just another example, of knowing and using rat behavior.

and anyone understanding rats, should, I'd think, understand rat behaviour and rat territories and yes rat movement.

and if you understand that, then you can catch them just as fast without lure, as with- rats aren't travelling miles like coon, cats and coyotes do nightly- rats are VERY home area orientated.

under ice "bait" is another thing- its a visual attractant in severe conditions-

for those that insist lure is needed- let me ask you this- how do you know? how did you test- in detail?

Its a fair question- I've given how I tested it, the best comparison testing I could think of that would give me valid results, to determine whether lure (NOT worked, but gave me MORE rats, QUICKER) enough to bother with.

MY test results, which were extensive and repeated many, many times over the years because when I went fulltime, I wanted to make as much as I could, as quick as I could. and if lure and edible bait added to that, then I would have done so in a nano second.

Everything I do on my lines, is done to reduce expense, and increase profits.

So I don't state, that for me lure has no benefit, lightly. That position comes after much thought, and trapline testing.

I've done this- over many years:

#1- set up new areas with lots of sign, all lured sets-

a good overnight % on rats, is about 75% on good setups, day in day out on next day checks. I got that, more or less. the 75% is an approxamation, because I have not kept such numbers for decades, but only at specific times when testing

When those rats are done- they are done

#2- set similar setups, without lured sets-

Again, typical results- and when those rats are "gone"- adding lure, GIVES ME NO MORE RATS IN THE SHORT TERM (meaning the locals).

#3- I've set up stream to stream- 1 stream lured, next one not-

and in all cases, the success % didn't change, based on whether lure was used, or not. and in this, I include all the common baits one uses above water.

#4- I've set up a location one year with lure, next season without

again, there was NO statistical difference, in catch rates.

#5- I've set up locations where first couple of nights % was less than expected- the ADDITION of lure, did NOT change this % at all.

so- thats how I came to my conclusion that lure, while it does attract rats, a conclusion I come to since coon sets show about any lure/bait attracts rats-

doesn't give me more rats, or quicker rats- than not using lure.



I did this over years and yes decades- not continously, but as the desire to pinpoint this down.

my final word- lure works, and as I told you TC, don't go looking for a magic lure, you already have it in your hands insofar as attracting rats- and if it gives you confidence, use it.

but for me-

KNOWLEDGE = LURE

and beav- i've got far more ocnfidence in you than you seem to have- cause I don't have a doubt in the world, that if you threw away your "crutch", you would catch the same amount of rats, in the same amount of time, with or without lure.

cause I can honestly state:

"when I use rat lure, I get most of the rats, quickly"

but at the same time,

"when I don't use rat lure, I get most of the rats, quickly"

is equally as true, for me.

and I strongly suspect for you as well. just say NO! LOL

Calvin, it sounds like you have done some comparative testing, and came to about the same conclusions I did.

[thebeav2]

Keep on spinning the lure bottle.

And what we talked about sounds good In theory but neither you nor I have tried it. It's all hearsay so far. But If It works It would put some rats on the boards.


The normall rat hut In my neck of the woods Is built buy hauling the cuttings up one side of the hut thus creating a ramp as they build. And what normally happens Is you have one side of the hut that Is just about vertical with no ramp. Sure all the huts don't end up this way but enough of them do. It's Impossible to make a fake pull out In this situation. Lure placed on the rat hut above the trap will take rats.
The other thing I have noticed Is when you disturb a rat hut In any way Is that disturbance will be covered and patched with debris and when that happens your trap Is going to get covered as the rat drags that debris over your trap. When using lure that doesn't happen. Your so called slick ups will also get covered.

I have tried those phony slick ups and yes they work to a degree. But what I have witnessed Is that once you catch a rat at the REAL pull out Is that all the rest of the rats will use the pull out that they are used to using every day and ignore the phony ones. They don't Ignore a spot of lure on the hut because It's curiosity thing. And It hasn't compromised the hut In any way.

And If you have never had a covered trap In the rat marsh then you have never trapped rats In marshes.

It's funny how we got from Jack In Dps to rat trapping In the marsh

Oh ya I can catch coyotes and fox and coon In just plain old dirt holes with NO LURE OR BAIT just plain old fresh dirt. But lure gets It done a lot quicker.

Hey 39 set 10 traps on the right bank of the creek and then set 10 on the other side.10 with lure and ten without I bet the ten with lure will out produce the ones with out.

[trappnman]

yes TC do that-

but try this instead-

take a creek with good rats, where one side of the bank is very good habitat, and the other side is barren habitat.

make 10 sets on each side-

make the good side unlured- and the barren side lured-

because a much as lure must turn and call those rats, without question those 10 lured sets on the barren side, should all be full. and the habitat sets, all empty.

let me know how it turns out......................


----------------------------------

depends on your distubance- you cut a big hole into the side, yup, they do patch it-

you get a slick area with fresh mud/vegetation smeared on it, and they will investigate it. I don't find they cover it up much at all. Geese, other critters, are on the houses all the time- fresh mud/water/weeds with no disturbance under it, should give no reason or indeed nothing TO patch or cover up.

Perhaps our defintions of slick ups is different, I mean when I take my hand, and run it up and down the house in a 4-5 inch smear of freshness to the house. it has to be renewed if reset, but even pullouts I splash fresh water on, but as you say, gang set and on to new. I seldom stayed at a house more than 2 checks.

But I think you made my point, that slickups attract... now we are down to mechanics of keeping a trap open at that point, and yes, there are ways to do so consistently. A stick into the house, below waterlevel, with a #1 pushed on it, so stick is through spring (with spring going into cut in willow)and under jaws, makes a solid platform without digging a bed into the house. and again, takes about a sec to find and make such a set up.

but frankly, never found it hard to find places where rats were coming up and out in multiple spots on active houses, or where a spot couldn't quickly be made.

but as long as we are on houses- I'll give you every house in the marsh, and I'll set the feedbeds and toilet areas- thats where you catch the most rats, the quickest.

Some of those big floating beds you could get 5-6 rats a night off of, for multiple nights.