Steve, Resting set question

[trappnman]

I don't worry about hair trigger either- my point was the nighhtlatched 1/75s, were set at whatever tension was present, and could not be changed.

if size is not the issue, then what advantage do pinch pans provide? because the only advantage (?) I can see, would be a bigger pan, hus making the far edge have less tension.

interesting you want pan travel- on rats it doesn't matter- rats are all over a trap- but on mink, I want a crisp drop ie with little tension involved.

I agree very much so, with calvins observaiton of mink being light footed.

[blackhammer]

I think with hair triggers, perhaps waxed traps you will get a few more weasel sized young of the year female mink.Which from my point of view are really not something worth worrying about.A trap with little tension, set up properly should be more than adequate on a mink line.

[trappnman]

I agree-

[trappnman]

beav asks- isn't that how everyone does it?

perhaps everyone trapping in mild weather, where one can DIG a pocket. but after the first week or two, for me, my pockets better be dug- cause you won't be digging them after freeze up.

thus, at most if not all mid to late season rat kills, a pocket isn't possible. And I guess since its so seldom possible for me, I forgot the conversation with Randy.

[thebeav2]

interesting you want pan travel- on rats it doesn't matter- rats are all over a trap- but on mink, I want a crisp drop ie with little tension involved.



The reason I want pan travel on both my mink and rat traps Is that with a bit of pan travel you are going to get higher catches on the short legged critters. A trap that springs before the critter has It's total weight on that pan Is going to give you misses and toe caught animals especially on light weights and short legged critters like mink and rats.

When trapping coon cats and canines we want some pan tension. Pan tension lets the trap stay set until the animal commits It's weight on the pan. Then we want a crisp let off with little or no pan travel. This ensures a good pad catch.

Now with rats and mink being light weights you can't afford any pan tension. So to achieve good high catches you need to allow that pan to travel a bit and get that animals weight committed before the trap springs.

This Is where trap placement Is very critical.
You need to have that trap just deep enough so that when that mink or rat bumps that trap It will basically be walking on the pan. Or having the mink or rat stepping over something to get Its weight committed to the pan.
Bigger pans will give you a better chance for that small footed critter to hit the pan.

Decreasing tension on larger traps Is very simple.
First we will all agree that loosening the pan bolt will give us a free dropping pan (when not set) But we still have tension when set due to the force created by the spring pressure forcing the jaw against the dog. New traps more then older traps.

A simple downward tweak on the end of the dog and a short pan notch will cure this problem.

Individuals that say they miss mink and rats In 1.75 and #2 sized traps are probably right. But It's not the trap It's the individual that doesn't know how to adjust that trap to utilize the benefits of the larger trap.

I'll let Steven49er explain the benefits of the pinch pan.

[trappnman]

I could not disagree more-

first of all, on rats it simply does not matter- rats crawl all over a trap. I don't want ANY hair trigger, nor do I want a trap that has no tension. If you want pan creep, go for it- but it doesn't matter either way, as long as NO hair triggers..

hair triggers or no tension traps, have far more misses (ie snapped traps) because rats are CRAWLING INTO THE TRAP so to speak.

but on mink, I want no creep- I want it crisp, but with only the tensions of the springs, not the tension of a tight pan. and I want the dog, trigger AND pan, to be level. level gives you the most consistent tension.

what advantages of a bigger trap?

I caught a fair amount of mink a year in #4 dls beaver traps- and I've NEVER had one that was body caught (in those traps). Not saying it doesn't happen, cause it does, and has to me as well- but overall, the size of the trap really doesn't matter ie #1 vs #3 insofar as BODY catches.

size of pan? as long as the pan size is approriate for the trap- as all 1.5s I've used, are.

so pray tell- what, exactly, are the "benefits" of using large traps on mink?

perhaps if one needs to use a bigger trap on mink, he should evaluate how he sets up smaller traps..............

because its easy to SAY there are all those benefits- but in reality- what are they?

and the fact of the matter is, that a bigger trap, with good springs will, even bending down the dog, have more tension than a smaller trap. Simply because a bigger trap has bigger springs.

as far as having pan travel for any animal- it comes down to a simple- whatever.

not for me, thats for sure.

[trappnman]

high pan- the one exception, according to the Porters, is weasels. They always set the pan as high as it goes (using 1.5 longsprings) and thats to keep the mice form firing off the trap all the time- they feel a weasel bounds, so to speak on the pan, and thus the high pan takes all the weasels, but misses (most) of the mice.

sounds good to me, so I'll give that a try.

[trappnman]

and for those curious, Gary & I are freidns, and when talking trapping on the phone or in person, we seldom disagree when talking trapping. Sure- we do things a little different, but overall, we tend to agree far more than we do not. What we are debating is nuances in methods, etc.

the best two trapping quotes I ever heard, are ChrisM saying "if it works for you, then you are doing it right" and BK telling me "steve, we ae catching the same mink"

[thorsmightyhammer]

Decreasing tension on larger traps Is very simple.
First we will all agree that loosening the pan bolt will give us a free dropping pan (when not set) But we still have tension when set due to the force created by the spring pressure forcing the jaw against the dog. New traps more then older traps.

A simple downward tweak on the end of the dog and a short pan notch will cure this problem.


Downward tweak will lighten pan tension but the problem is if you get ice on the dog your gonna get caught fingers.

Isnt much of an issue until you are out there below zero.

I could explain why I like pinch pans but it dont really matter.

Either ones mind is made up or not.

Two winters ago I caught a thousand rats without them, this past winter I caught 1100 with pinch pans.

I didnt catch an extra hundred because of em but in my mind after using em I am going to stick with them.

[trappnman]

everyones mind is made up?

thats what you got from my question?

nevermind.................

[thorsmightyhammer]

as far as having pan travel for any animal- it comes down to a simple- whatever.

not for me, thats for sure.

All I know is when I started giving my winter rat traps more of the dog, thus giving me more pan travel, my hind leg catches went way up and my loss went way down, and i mean way down.

[calvin]

I have found the same issue as 49er regarding the downward dog: If using only the fall water line, it works. However, when the temps fall and the winter huts start to freeze, I had traps I couldn't keep set in the huts (or in my hands) due to icing.

I also had Spring rat traps that, even though had downward dogs, ended up being very heavy pan tension due to rust. Something i fought daily...and lost to some degree. I don't "forsee" that happening with the pinch pans....at least I hope not.

[blackhammer]

I was really surprised in watching rats climb on a lot of floats in SD.floats from a number of different trappers.How long it took for the rat to finally get caught.They traveled all over the float and the trap.It left me thinking rats are much more light footed than I would have ever guessed.While a few times it may have been way to much pan tension perhaps due to rust.I think the majority of the time it was just the rats were stepping that lightly.I think this may be a deal that happened more so on floats than other trapping.But it is something to keep in mind.

[Rally Hess]

Good post Blackhammer. I've watcherd the same thing with rats and a female mink. I prefer longsprings for just that reason. My male/female ratio is back to about even since going back to LS's.
Chalie Dobbins adressed this issue with coilsprings and adjustable pans by putting a brass flatwasher on each side of the pan and using a 10x32 brass bolt.

[trappnman]

must be some awfull tight traps!

rats climb all over traps as stated-

perhaps its that pan travel so many want?

[calvin]

You would have to see it to believe it, T-man. What one "thinks" is light enough then "sees" as being far too heavy a pan tension can change the way you set up your traps and/or prep your traps. I tried hard to get as hair trigger as I could out there in the spring due to the conditions.

But, a different deal out there. Float trapping lends itself to a wet trap that dries...Then rusts...fast, causing much more tension than a guy would think (there). This can happen to some degree when open water hut trapping as well. Traps under the waterline weren't much an issue. Keeping a light pan was Much Much harder(for me) than at home. And I arrived with freshly coated (painted) traps.

RKs rat video has footage of a rat walking all over a float with traps on it. See it yourself a few times and you/ll make adjustments and "I" started realizing what I was likely missing (in rats and mink) over the years.

I see the threads on rat traps with guys toting the #1 trap as being an ideal rat trap. What a joke...That pan is the size of a marble and a guy is missing as much as he/s connecting...maybe more.

I came home and spent about $800 on pinch pans....because they will make me money. If anyone wants a pile of stock Duke 1.5 pans (nightlatched) let me know. Would make me more happy to see them in the trash personally.

Just when you think you have trapping a stupid rat about figured out, they make you look like a 8 year old kid with his first trap on his first day. Its amazing what your eyes will tell you, totally debunking the theories in your own head you KNEW to be true. I heard gears grinding to a halt upstairs...and it hurt. A humbling experience and lessons learned...as always.

[trappnman]

very interesting indeed calvin-

your words certainly give me reason to ponder-

are you saying that you feel even on streams like our common friend owns out in the country from me, that you feel stock pans, are costing you mink?

rust is not a problem, and all are under water, all are snapped and reset at least weekly.

[calvin]

Probably not losing much, if anything, in your conditions Steve. Only guessing of course but the issues I see comes from where conditions "change" (under water...to half froze up rat hut... to high and dry SD acid water with immediate rust). I found getting a trap and a system to keep a light pan tension in all those different circumstances to be difficult (for me ...so far). And a nice light pan tension in a stream can turn into a trap that doesn't want to stay set in a frosted up hut some days when they go from wet/warm to Zero degrees outside the hut. Or, a nice and light pan, in the garage, turns into 2lbs when rust hits on a float.

I hope the sloppy pinch pans and wax will take a lot of the variation out of the equasion. The extra pan size is a bonus, too. We/ll see.

Never thought I/d wax my water traps but now i/m seeing a "system" that may be of real use to me. Personally, if I were setting sub water level in running streams as you do, I probably wouldn't worry about it much as long as you can maintain light tension. I set some traps light and watched rats hit the pan several times before it fired. And the times they seemingly miss the pan completely when walking all over the top of the trap is eye opening and rats are bigger, dumber and more clumbsy than mink are. So what are we missing?

Like you, I don't have rust issues on my local streams/rivers here, either.

As far as pan fall, this is one aspect of the pinch pans that i liked. If I want to set for coon, I can add in more fall. If I want it right on the edge it's easy to SEE exactly where the edge is. I also think the added fall in -interior hut trapping can have value for reasons 49er described.

I don't know how well the larger pinch pans will work for coon, however. So i went out and bought a couple dozen Duke 1.75 for the water coon line for comparison. like kelly, I immdiately saw the size difference of the 1.75 pan compared to even the larger pinch pans. These 1.75s may make real decent mink/rat traps once they go soft. Even thought about taking a torch to the springs to kill the tension....especially at current rat prices, but then i/m back to the stock latch setup, so they/ll probably stay water/coon traps.

Sorry, kind of ended up into the pinch pans thread.

[Rally Hess]

The wet dry of float trapping is causing the pans where they bolt to the frame to rust quickly and then cause the heavy pan pressure. The metal to metal and low grade steel in those Dukes is condusive to rusting. By putting the flat brass washers on each side of the pan, you eliminate that metal to metal rusting situation. The 10x32 bolt takes the slack out of the bolt hole and undersized bolts that come with most traps. This eliminates the pan to bolt gap which causes excessive pan movement before the pan disengages with the dog. I usually have to drill the original pan hole and the frame a bit larger to accomodate the 10x32 screw. Since I read Charlie Dobbins book on doing this adjustment, it eliminated hard pans and sloppy pans, and i'm sure aided in the fur I caught since.

[calvin]

Rally,
Don't you still get the rust buildup between the pan and the bolt it rides on, though? OR does the brass do away with that?

Bet it's a good time trying to slide those little washers in that little gap. like working on a watch.