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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 5, 2015 11:03:06 GMT -6
We are talking effective predator control for the benedit of other species and the timing to do such, that is why the simple analogy that a dead coyote is worth as much in October as it is in May holds little water. Science proves that out.
I Know if I want more deer on my place my best bet is to take them out on the den, the adults present and the pups, those fawns then have the best possible chance of seeing the fall possible. if I wait until October to kill those coyotes many of those fawns a dead, so how did I give them the best possible chance of survival waiting? I might give what is LEFT the chance to survive, but half of half is still less than the entire fawn drop in spring. Maximize their potential to see August and September would be my choice. I f a sheep rancher example only has 1,000 lambs come June 1 and I let them coyotes eat all summer by Sept 1 he has 800 left then I tell him no worries I am going to protect them now until you sell in October and I keep his loss rates at 5 percent so he losses another 40 that leaves him with 760 going to the sale barn, or I kill out those dens before they go to summer pasture and I keep his loss rates at that same 5 percent he takes 950 to the sale barn. No different than fawn deer what so ever.maximize the crop be it lambs or fawns.
tman the numbers I went by are what was posted by either the DNR guy or the paper if someone had the wrong numbers then so be it, I went by what was posted in 3 sets of past harvest numbers.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 4, 2015 18:02:26 GMT -6
Tman of course less vocal be like calling the dinner bell otherwise. Coyotes can co exists with Wolves but smaller numbers for sure, shrunken home range and less out and about by them. They did a collared study I believe in Yellowstone on this subject and showed that they didn't move around much and used the areas less used by the wolf pack in order to try and stay alive.
If your trapping 1/10 of the entire state harvest then your opening up all kinds of areas for newbies to move on into!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 4, 2015 17:57:06 GMT -6
Well I go by what this guy stated to your paper is all. He is MINN DNR and made that number known or one heck of a typo. Bill Schuna seems to be the name quoted and hard to believe a typo because the other numbers mentioned are 5 figure numbers as well not 4.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 4, 2015 14:43:35 GMT -6
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 3, 2015 20:12:00 GMT -6
Climate change LOL. It has been happing every day for millions of years and if anyone thinks the U.S. by itself can make a real difference or for that matter the world as a whole make a difference that could even be documented well I have some swamp land to sell.
Anyone think China and Mexico and other countries care about climate change or making more money and exporting more product?
Alternative energy would cost us trillions and trillions and increas rates just facts, look at what has happened with the technology we have in Place with the combustion engine burned on diesel and gasoline! The added cost to be compliant has been billions and has added cost from start to finish. Yet many other countries burn hi sulfur diesel each and every day and many auto makers make diesel pickups and cars in those markets that would never pass US standards. Where is the mandate on them?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 3, 2015 12:41:30 GMT -6
Like I said which came first the chicken or the egg?
You guys keep knocking them out in the month of October and November and let me know how that helps with fawn production and reduce depredation of fawn deer.
Funny how that works that your best time to help out the deer population is when the fur is prime.
I agree very few bullheads in the trout streams that I've ever fished.
At least here in Missouri the otter is about is well-liked to a fisherman as coyotes are to a sheep Ranch or in the west.
I don't know too many other states that have the otter harvest Missouri does and yet still doesn't make a big dent in the overall population you can trap them later than most other furbearers as well they don't call them water wolves for nothing
Tman your estimated coyote harvest in 2012/2013 in your state was listed as 53,690! That is a crazy amount of coyotes and they all have their own place to call home and leaving areas void of such? I would figure this harvest had to come from the lower 2/3 rds for the most part due to the number of wolves in the northern 1/3 rd of the state?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 2, 2015 19:55:01 GMT -6
Thanks Aaron proves my point rather well, these coyotes are killing in July you kill them in May or June that fawn and others would be around unless disease got them for the most part.
Never seems to think that by waiting until November and then killing these coyotes he has saved fawns, they are dead in the summer so yes a dead coyote in Novemeber is well a dead coyote but they have already effected the fawn population by the time he gets steel in the ground and under normal conditions this area would have coyotes in it come next spring or close enough to cause an impact to the wild deer Hurd.
Kill them when you want but no better time for maximum fawn production than the spring and early summer months. I would have a very hard time telling a person looking for max deer or livestock by me trapping for 6 weeks in the fall we can and will achieve those results.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 2, 2015 17:38:32 GMT -6
Tman otter and coyotes do not kill just for food they kill for the sake of killing at times and to teach pups how to hunt, so kill those adults and pups in the spring and there is no teaching taking place on that farm or ranch for that season for the MOST part. Livestock or wildlife.
In fact otter will clean out a pond quickly and not all are eaten, here in Missouri our otter harvest is very large and has little impact, so much so a few legislators wanted to put a bounty on River otter. So in that regard common sense not so common,I guess?
Never if you could kill those coyotes in the spring that little boy would be worm food and not on the trail cam !
Never kill back those coyotes the highest majority of them and you don't have to worry about those 2 or another 2 because you killed them back in the spring and summer. Again they wouldn't make it to the video which by the way your link doesn't work!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 1, 2015 20:13:38 GMT -6
Tray I read an artical on this very subject and is becoming a hot topic with QDM and other groups like minded on maximum deer benefits on their lease or private grounds because now with EHD being more prevalent in many states and areas of each state and many more harvest seasons the states feel the pressure along with landowners to find out why deer numbers are not bouncing back or maintaining like they did years previous.
We all,know the insurance companies love the new trend in deer numbers LOL. yet hunters are starting to take notice to the much reduced numbers. Here amissouri has for the past many years had healthy deer populations since I have moved here I see less deer than I did in NW SD for sure. I used to be able to drive 20 miles of HWy 212 and find many road killed deer along that stretch, here in NW Missouri I see very few road killed deer and even durring the fall not many deer as I thought I would. I can really see a noticeable difference in the number of deer here in this area and what people told me used to be here prior to 2011. EHD plus more coyotes and more depredation keeps them from bouncing back and the tag allotments have proven that out here. With far reduced doe tags and this year the talk of shortening the rifle deer season state wide.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 1, 2015 19:14:32 GMT -6
Tman unless the fawns where collared how do you know if any fawn depredation occurred? Did they have temp sensors on these collars?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Sept 1, 2015 19:13:12 GMT -6
Rshaw those coyotes will,get removed at some point on their own, never bought a lot into that theory as the majority of livestock killing coyotes are aggressive sorts not submissive types. Again all timing of the year and the pecking order.
Tman the assumptions you say are mine really are yours of what you think I am stating LOL.
1. never stated local wildlife population. But if we think about it why do coyote choose to den where they do? What are the keys to what a coyotes looks for,in a denning location?
2. There are many denning locations in any area but some are better than others exspecially if you have more than one family group hitting the same food source. Hence the reason they get used each and every year by knew coyote pairs, really that simple. Things change drastically so does the denning locations. Things remain more constant they keep getting used.
You state food is everywhere so why would they not use the same generalized areas? if good enough for the previous coyotes why not good enough for next years breeders? if things stay the same? If you think a coyote den can be anywhere then so be it. They look for keys to raise pups in most areas.
3. As soon as the coyotes are killed others move in, well depends on the time of year as Tray stated, the densities you have in a given area and if your looking at fill in on the 80 acre parcel or looking at a larger area? Unless your looking to kill the area out your leaving the seed that will be next springs breeding stock so your fill in would be slower because of what YOU leave after taking the cream and moving on. Would love to come locate coyotes about march in your area to see just how this all plays out .
The otter reference was this not what you stated. If I kill a few otters out of a family group and leave the rest what good am I doing the guy with a trophy pond of bass or catfish? I tell him boy I got 3 otters in Novemeber so your in good shape by next spring he goes to working rubber worms or spinner baits that normally produce bass or cut shad that produce catfish and he catches 1/10 the norm and most of his 5-7 lb bass are gone and his 10-15lb catfish are gone what good did I really do him? yes here because otters are much like coyotes you can get a permit easy enough to kill otters when damage is occurring not waiting for the fire to have already gone through.
The point remains as you have eluded to already, spring is the time to kill coyote for the benefit of much Wildife and livestock. Not fall fur trapping time...............
Predator control and fur trapping are 2 very different approaches that we have to agree upon do we not?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 31, 2015 20:10:42 GMT -6
Never you can't figure things that way trapping on a micro hunk of land and expecting macro results from such activity in the fall. Like saying I trap an otter and that is one less fish eater in the pond, the others will make up for the one or two or three I kill.
I could remove one den of coyotes but if I don't remove the others close by nature is going to dictait if the food source is viable and easier to,obtain due to concentrations and shear numbers available they are going to move in on the food source at some point. The key to good predator control is to get them when the food source your protecting needs it the most, not when fur is prime the two ever hardly correlate for maximum numbers of the source one is protecting from coyote depredation unless circumstances change.
Bottom line if one wants max deer numbers then the spring is the time to control the coyotes, you could say every coyote you kill means one less feeding, on the other foot I can state every fawn that is given the chance to see the breeding season is one more to produce 2-3 more fawns. hard to do if the bulk of the fawns are depredated upon by August compaired to those left come sept. I understand no season for you in the Spring but your game dept and others are complaing about too many coyotes and many Midwestern states giving out fewer and fewer deer tags because of a combination of disease and spring predation on fawns. Again a food source is heavily utilized when the Pickens are the easiest even though can take place at other times of the year.
Tman so why aren't these areas being utilized each spring? other coyotes taking over the vacated area in their territory? Your coyote numbers from what I saw because of higher prey base much like here in Mo densities much higher, so why wouldn't there be the small shift to Move over if things stay the same? I know here in Missouri Inhave seen the same as SD my neighbor has goats about 75-80 head and a guard dog because he has had problems in the past, we have a great denning area just to the north of my place, I Took out a family last fall, guess what? There is a new one there this year and has been there raising pups Imhave them on my trail cam. I also have 2 other family groups within 1 mile of my house one to the south across the road and another to the west and the area to the north. As the ground stays the same and the food source and habitat being key for denning I have little doubts the ones I take out in the fall trapping will ever have an impact by itself on the dennings locations of the next pair to move in the following spring. Just like you here in MO the food source for them is crazy high, plenty of rabbits,mice,voles,shrews,moles,deer etc to feed on. Rarely ever a real drought here and little true pressure ever applied to the overall population of coyotes.
2013-14 based off 43 licensed buyers in Missouri the coyote harvest was 7,631 we know it was higher because not all coyote fur went though one of the 43 licensed buyers. Yet this year deer seasons will be shortened by a few days, tag allotment numbers are down again and hunters report seeing less deer even with those 7,631 coyotes harvested by fur trappers? yes a mix of EHD and predation has meant a down turn of decent size in the overall deer population in this state. Comes back to helping those fawns see fall and that is done by timely control done durring the crucial time. Not fur trapping.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 30, 2015 6:21:38 GMT -6
Funny 9 wire the same guy that tried to tell,people his 3 weeks fall trapping In ND was keeping the areas pretty well void of coyotes for an entire year, is the samw guy telling me many fawns are born in November and Decemeber down your way LOL.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 29, 2015 22:10:45 GMT -6
Tman 30-40 over 10,000 acres and starting to gather on early spring calvers.
You won't shoot that many on sheep producers because of the work done.
Very little hiding room for coyotes on fresh snow................
The point is this, you need to be out year round to figure the game out.
Why would you leave coyotes den in an area for multiple years? if your fall fur trapping is having an impact? They should be dead.............
There are replaced that is just a fact. Go,out call in an active den or trap,them out in the spring and see if you don't have new coyotrs in there come fall or next spring, I would make a better on lure on that one no matter Minniesota or south Dakota.
You can disagree A 1000 percent but the fact remains a fall harvest of coyotes with traps has little effect by next spring. I have killed out dens in historic locations year after year. Your voided areas fill in with surrounding coyotes again simple really if you understand how the cycle works. Your opening up those areas for new coyotes and they seek them out, see what is available and by who and if empty will come on in.
I can see this is going no where so I will bow out with this once again, if YOU feel your fall fur trapping has an effect on spring denning so be it. This has nothing to do with sheep, cattle etc. This has everything to do with what coyotes can and will do annually . You stated it best ,your denning areas filled in with the same coyotes for multiple years..............
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 28, 2015 21:17:49 GMT -6
how many fawns did you collar to get to that assumption ?
I feel this is turning into the chicken or the egg scenario so if you believe the course of action to maintain better fawn production is done through fall fur trapping exclusively to your area then so be it.
Paired coyotes in the fall and winter? Your done by the end of November correct! 50 percent of ones fall fur take is going to be young of the year coyotes. Most of them are not going to breed the first year more likely in higher densites as well. They will have less pups on avg than a 2-3 year old coyote to boot.
Unlimited denning areas? OK. The best areas will be sought out no matter where one lives.
Tman I have seen the results and can tell you flying a plane in January does little good you can hit an area and kill 30-40 coyotes out of it and come back in 4-5 weeks and your going to have more coyotes right back in there. So fall fur trapping is no different than hitting them hard on a fresh snow with a plane. Cream and go versus staying and keeping them really knocked back.
You clean out that pair in good coyote habitat there will be another to replace them, again go back into your trapped areas come May/July and do some locating and see what you find out. Your densities are much higher in Minniesota than SD in many parts of the state. Your shift is far less than some areas of SD and Wyoming and other western states where they are worked year round. Not to mention with all that food you talk about then your denning should be far greater than areas with less prey species and more spread out denning.
If your contention is your coyote population turns over quite quickly and your trapping them hard in the fall and early winter then your overall numbers should prove that out correct?
You really believe your suppressing denning by fall fur trapping by itself ? Okay then.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 27, 2015 19:46:28 GMT -6
You don't think wildlife benefits from timely coyote control hand in hand with livestock predation control? They eat sheep because it is an easy food source and they are also in the areas in which coyotes choose to den for various reasons. You know how many times guys have moved sheep into areas with active coyote dens? The issue becomes you remove them prior to the sheep gettin put out in these pastures and all benefit.
Your thought process doesn't hold much water if the deer hunter who is concerned about his deer numbers has a tract of ground that coyotes prefer to den on or close by and he has an ample supply of food ie fawns then you will still have active dens come spring annually unless something changes for it not to be so. So again your October coyotes are killed off and simply replaced by Mid March and April by other coyotrs that seek out the best denning locations which happens to be the same tract the deer hunter owns and his fawn rate is suppressed long before you get thre to trap again in the fall.
Timely control beenfits both livestock if needd and wildlife. Look at the studies done there are a few Tman on the beenfits of selling control work going hand in hand for the benefit of wildlife and livestock, jut because you have no livestock worries doesn't mean the wildlife would not benefit from spring denning removal as it has been proved many times it in fact does have a direct impact for deer, antelope and other species.
In SD hunters paid a sur charge the ADC program received a small portion of that as we had a direct impact on helping wildlife along with livestock producers annually with coyote removal.
You will have some less over all coyotes after your fall fur trapping but the denning areas will see little change from your fall control, dispersal and howling tell them the cream of the crop habitat now has a vacancy and e more food available the more apt you are to have multiple dens as their home range will shrink as they feel less pressure due to an over abundance of food, either way spring control is a far better option to insure max numbers come fall strictly from a depredation stand point.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 26, 2015 10:52:04 GMT -6
Tman disagree your areas will have a short break but come next spring your going to have more denning coyotes fill in that good habitat, for raising both coyote pups and fawns. If the food is their they will take it,opportunity knocks. So much to be said on how many pairs raising pups, In a given area each year but fawn suppression with out timely control will take place no matter how many coyotes you take out trapping from October/December.
That is why timely removal is an annual thing, give them a break and this will turn bad sooner than later unless you have other factors that helps to suppress coyote numbers.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 23, 2015 7:36:08 GMT -6
Yeh Marty the book Sherman wrote was an excellent book and I read it every so often again as well. Along with the Nelson system trapping book.
They sure knew how to market themselves even back then.
I just bought a 1945 Trappers world in really good shape with artical in it from Ehn, Herb Lenon and others. hard to imagine that is 70 years old. Trappers sadly getting long in the tooth but try and do my part with a handful of kids to carryin on the tradition.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 22, 2015 11:07:54 GMT -6
Hey Joe thanks for the offer, yeh haven't seen Glen S in awhile still missin it though. Tell him hey for me.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 22, 2015 8:46:50 GMT -6
IMO every state needs to make coyotes a predatory species year round 365. I am working on such here, yet old traditions rough to break . Zero biological reasons for a coyote season, even with our liberal take under the ADC guidelines.
But do with what you can under your laws and regs but keep in mind better options can and do exist.
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