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Post by Bristleback on May 11, 2006 12:47:10 GMT -6
PH's in Africa and guides in Alaska use 99.9% of the time one of the BIG 3.....Swarovski, Leica and or Zeiss in no particular order. They spend hours a day looking through glass. Ask a sheep or goat guide what they use......
I will add that there have no doubt been more critters shot with Tasco and Bushnell optics than any others......and not because they're better......
IMHO, I'm not too fond of the 50mm obj lens....using one usually requires higher mounts which tends to have one hold his head higher on/off the stock......and it's vital to keep your head down when shooting and not PEAK.....trust me I know, I've been guilty of peaking=missing.
No doubt you will find fans of Leupold, Burris, Redfield, Simmons, Kahles,Tasco, Bushnell, just like Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Toyota. I simply recommend buying the best glass you can afford, look at it as an investment.....you going to use it for the next 10-20 yrs?
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Post by Stanley on May 11, 2006 14:19:11 GMT -6
Bristleback, thanks. Yes I will have this till I die,hopefully 50 yrs.I saved myself big money on both purchases. Scope, brand new in box with full warranty off of E-bay. Shipping was slow. At St. Martin, you barter. Any of the stores or shops you go into offer you a beer. If you go into a party store and want to buy a bottle of Jack Daniels, they pour you a shot of JD. I worked on the Bi-nocks for a week, on the day before we left I bought them. 250$ below cabela's price. I plan to go back some day. I agree with you on Tasco and Bushnell.
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Post by Bristleback on May 11, 2006 14:39:01 GMT -6
Good job, sounds like you got a sweet deal. You'd better go back and get some more goodies. WOW what a trip, take the Sweets to StMartin and you get to buy "huntin stuff" and at a good deal to boot.....
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Post by bubcat on May 11, 2006 18:42:10 GMT -6
Ok, I'm thinking we left the Cabela Catalog Criteria...LOL Dollar for Dollar, Leupold makes an ok scope for most of the time, and they'll make it good on a bad one. And where moneys no object, I'm not thinking Swarovski on the top of the heap. For my money the very best scope on the market, the only one I know of tested to 66 ft of water, frozen in a nitrogen atmosphere to -80 degrees F. and then heated to 250 degrees F.... all in a one-hour period, function tested at both temperature extremes, that will take an incredible pounding in the field and want more, is the Nightforce. Who'd want a 2,000 dollar rifle scope? I'd think anybody who was serious about their hunting. It's a matter of priorities. Pull up on your second caribou at forty below zero, some 1,500 miles from nowhere, on the trip of a lifetime, only to find out your crosshairs snapped off in the cold, from the recoil of your first one, and right there in that moment... tell me what comfort you have in your "Lifetime warranty" LOL ( I've been there.) And the diss on the larger objectives is getting to me here, like the last thing some want to be able to do at 5:45 AM on opening morning is see better... ;D Yes, with a fixed power high end, your taking a hit with the objective,... but with a variable? what are we talking about? The difference in FOV between a Leupold 2.5x8x36 and a Nightforce 3.5x15x56 is 37.3/13.7 on the Leupold, and 29.5/6.9 on the nightforce. NOW, on low power setting for each, if a fella is gonna have trouble picking up on a coyote at 100 yds in a 29 ft circle as opposed to the advantage of a 37 ft one...I guide hunters for a living, and I can tell you, chances are he's not gonna hit it anyways. (Hitting or missing isn't always so much about the hardware. Some just get too excited) But if its a cloudy snowy opening morning, 1/2 hour before sunrise, that fella with 36 mm objective is gonna be asking the fella with the 56mm objective, what it is he's looking at. Because you're not going to see anywhere near in a leopold what you will in a Swavorski, and the Nightforce is better still. AND, did I mention it is also MADE IN THE USA? Swarovski? might as well trade your truck for a BMW if you ask me! ;D
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Post by SteveCraig on May 11, 2006 19:22:58 GMT -6
LOL Good one Bub.
On a side note, I have heard nothing but great praise for the Bushnell Elete series.
Looked through a couple and was very impressed.
I went to a Sportsmens Show several years ago, and looked through many different brands of bino's and when I picked up a pair of Brunton's ( yes the company that makes the compass) , was blown away by the quality.
Bought them on the spot, and will never go back to anything else. In fact just bought another set recently just to have a spare pair. Far better quality and clarity than those $1200 Swarski's for 1/3 the price! IMHO Steve
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Post by gunny on May 11, 2006 22:44:07 GMT -6
Ahh, Nightforce,
We were shooting the sniper portion of the IRONMAN last year when one of the top shooters showed up with a Tubb 2000 topped with a Nightforce scope.
Using the Nightforce he zeroed the stage. No hits, no points!
The stage briefing required 5 hits at 670 yds. and 5 at 500yds. Using a sub $1000 set up, I managed 5 of 5 at 670 and 3 of 5 at 500.
Upon completion of the match, Matt Burkett, Mark Buchannan and I were troubleshooting the Nightforce. Leopould engineer Dan Nelson arrived on the scene and diagnosed the problem in minutes.
With the rifle benched and sandbagged, and the crosshairs lined up on an 8" plate at 500 yds, simply squeezing the trigger (empty chamber-dry fire) the crosshairs would move completely off of the 8" plate.
Moral of the story; you can hawk the BMW, sell the wife and kids, buy the most expensive equipment on the market and it can and will fail! Have a plan "B"
The USMC tested all of the top scopes (25 of them) and chose the Schmidt & Bender as the new optic for all of the .308 and .50 USMC sniper rifles. It was the only riflescope to meet or exceed all of thier rigorous specifications. Replacing the 10X that had been in use for 25 years.
Nightforce does make a nice scope, so does Schmidt & Bender, Horus vision, MEOPTA, and ACOG.
If a person is really serious about low-light/no-light target aquisition the ACOG wins hands down.
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Post by Bristleback on May 12, 2006 15:08:43 GMT -6
Dollar for Dollar, Leupold makes an ok scope for most of the time, and they'll make it good on a bad one.....Leupold quality is better than what 80%+ of the hunters have/use.....
And where moneys no object, I'm not thinking Swarovski on the top of the heap......I never said it was on top of the heap, but they are among the "preferred" in Africa and Alaska.
66' below water, -80degree and +250degrees..need I say more as to these tests the only one that is even close to hunting conditions would be possibly the -80 degrees and that would be Polar Bear/muskox hunting..... these tests proves their indestructable?....just like the shooter found at the match Gunny was at......
tell me what comfort you have in your "Lifetime warranty" LOL ( I've been there.)...even a Rollex watch can and has failed before, but not likely very often.....
And the diss on the larger objectives is getting to me here, like the last thing some want to be able to do at 5:45 AM on opening morning is see better.......the comment on the larger obj lens is the often times needed higher rings which will often cause one to keep their head up off the stock compared to the much more common 40 mm obj lens..
The difference in FOV between a Leupold 2.5x8x36 and a Nightforce 3.5x15x56 is 37.3/13.7 on the Leupold, and 29.5/6.9 on the nightforce. Any your point is?........As to the light gathering ability....hardly comparing apples to apples 36 to a 56..
For hunting applications and light gathering abilities.....what are legal shooting hours for most big game? 1/2 before/after sunrise/sunset that would likely cover most if not later and earlier. "Glassing" is for binos and spotting scopes not riflescopes. Gunny brought up some companies I'd bet most have never heard of before out side the Schmidt n Bender......no doubt there are better optics than Leica, Zeiss and Swarovski...as Gunny has pointed out...are they a "niche" market??
Having been in the hunting industry for several years and having the opprotunity to meet, visit, etc with many guides and outfitters....nearly all of them trust their $40,000 lion hunts, $15,000 bear hunt, etc on one of the 3 Swarovski, Zeiss and or Leica........which is better glass than 95+% of what most have.
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Post by bubcat on May 12, 2006 15:27:38 GMT -6
Moral of the story; you can hawk the BMW, sell the wife and kids, buy the most expensive equipment on the market and it can and will fail! Have a plan "B"No doubt about that! Gunny, I hadn't heard of the "AGOC" before so I looked it up. Trijicon... Nice looking compact little scope. As soon as I saw it, I could just picture it topping a 7600 remington 18 inch carbine in 243, as far as "truck guns" go. I think I might need one, as soon as I find the words to explain to the wife why that is. LOL Your saying, so far as " low-light/no-light target aquisition the ACOG wins hands down...." What's up with that scope? Do you have one? I ran the math on it for light gathering capacity, as far as `eye pupil and twilight performance... out of the box it wouldn't appear to be superior. BUT, there must be something going on in the tube to raise the ante on that? Where would there be any tech data on that scope? I've never seen one of these to peek through. I was looking at that new Tri power... "reticule automatically adjusts to ambient light..." (I like that idea!) One piece mil spec aircraft quality tube... lifetime guarantee. Price is super... if it stacks up. I'm thinking I might get one. But I can't see how it would possibly allow better light than Nightforce, or even Swavorski scope? Running the math on it's properties, rating the eye pupil at "8" on a 4x32 trijicon, and twilight performance at approx "11.3" (Both above average mind you) and then just to be fair, locking up a 4x16x56 Nightforce on 4 power, We're looking at eye pupil of "14", and twilight performance of "14.97" It would seem the Nightforce has it beat, but your saying the AGOC can really pick up the light? I'm not doubting that, you say you've handled both...( Same date & and time?) I'm just trying to figure out and understand, "How'd they do that without an intensifier tube or something like it? I've now got this vision today, of that tri power trijicon 4x32 collecting dust and rust on the back seat of the extended cab, wedged happily between some camo raingear and maybe a skilsaw or something clunky like that, with a clip on the dash, all banging around, just waiting patiently for a chance to come out and bark at a deer or a coyote. If you got any more on the nitty gritty of that Trijicon scope outfit, it be interesting to hear it. It would appear to be a nice reliable compact, but if it's letting in more light and clarity than a Nightforce, I'm hoping you can explain it to me? (Below is a half decent link to a site that explains some of the variables on light gathering capacities of rifle scopes for anybody interested) www.snipersparadise.com/newproducts/swfassintro.htm
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Post by lb on May 12, 2006 20:48:48 GMT -6
I would not take issue with any of the above recommendations. Fact of the matter, I (personally) use a wide variety of scopes on a wide variety of rifles, and they all have slightly different purpose.
However, this man wants a truck gun for an estimated four(4) snap shots at running coyotes per year. That is where my thoughts rest upon a 2.5X8 or the less expensive 3X9. He doesn't need world class glass, although we all know the advantage. I'm just trying to be practical. I have a couple of those scopes and they do fine for what he wants to do.
Good hunting. LB
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Post by gunny on May 12, 2006 22:34:42 GMT -6
Bubcat,
The ACOG has a reticle is night time lit with a tritium power source that will last for many years and not require batteries.
It also has a fiber optic feed that that gathers available light in low-light conditions. Again without the use of batteries.
Tough as nails, the ACOG is also used on the NLAW weapon system. (anti-armor guided missle system.)
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Post by bubcat on May 13, 2006 16:16:31 GMT -6
Gunny, I just checked E-bay, I couldn't find one of them Anti Armor Guided Missiles anywhere...You sure they're available?....
Sounds good on the scope.Thanks!.... I think.... Went to gun brokers.com and see a few of those ACOG's on the block.. Sigh.... Had my pay pal finger hovering over the "buy" button three times on a two hour to close auction... sweat rolling off my brow... You've cursed me talking about this scope I think. It's a, "one for me, one for you" world I live in with the missus.... I just bought a Gen 3 night vision scope that translates into a trip to Ireland for her...
I'm scared to find out what this scope is gonna cost me! My stuff's all practical and necessary of course as you can see, (and I can trade it down the line) but hers?... Ireland?... Rolling hills full of sheep $hit and warm beer?... what's the fuss?... I'm just hoping theres some fishing or something... With this ACOG, I'm gonna end up strolling around some International Garden Show, I just know it.
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Post by FWS on May 13, 2006 16:39:42 GMT -6
It's great fun there Bub, but I'm prejudiced because I'm an Irish citizen as well as a US citizen and have family property to go to whenever I want. So all it costs me is a cheap plane ticket. And all my family there are commercial fishermen so I've got boats awaiting me.
There's some very good fishing there depending on where you go. I've never had to buy much food there simply because I catch enough pollock, haddock, sole, salmon, lobsters, crabs, razor clams, mussels, etc. to keep me quite happy along with potatos dug fresh.
The beer ain't warm, that's a British thing and if in Dublin you'll need to tour the St. James Gate brewery where Guinness is brewed and sample product.
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Post by bubcat on May 13, 2006 17:17:32 GMT -6
"Where Guinness is Brewed"... Glad you like it! I TRIED, and I tried, and I tried... to appreciate it... One night I had to run across the living room three times and lick the dogs ass to get the taste out of my mouth. Sheeeez!
I entered a writers contest once sponsored by Guinness. ...Win an authentic Irish Pub...(figured I'd sell it) I'm a professional writer I thought.. this is a shoe-in.... picked up a 4 pack and eased back in the recliner in front of a crackling fire with a note pad... cracked one open...
"as the rich creamy froth from a pour of guiness slowly settles to the bottom of a glass..." you finish it... 500 words or less.. Spent two months trying to find words better than "goat piss" to describe that beer... Never could finish a bottle, and i opened as much as thirty of em.
What's your wife look like? Cute? We can work a deal... You can go to Ireland with mine, and I'll stay here with yours? ;D
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Post by FWS on May 13, 2006 17:45:33 GMT -6
No wife. Girlfriend who wants to go with me on my next trip to Ireland, she likes to fish ;D
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Post by Bristleback on May 13, 2006 21:11:16 GMT -6
One night I had to run across the living room three times and lick the dogs ass to get the taste out of my mouth. Sheeeez!....that has to be a classic line......Budcat, I'm happy to see we can agree on one thing at least and that is that Guinness tastes like crap......LOL
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Post by bubcat on May 14, 2006 8:00:27 GMT -6
Bristle, we've likely got more in common if we looked. That Swarovski outfit makes a great scope. They're just not my favorite. But that's just me, and what I want in a rifle scope. Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one, the problems start when you let one turn you into the other.LOL I never said anything about "glassing" for game with a rifle scope. I was talking about those peak times at dawn and dusk... pulling up on the sillouette of a moose, and being able to tell if it's a cow or a bull, and better yet, if a bull, does it have 14 or 26 points? The sort of info you'll never get with a cheap scope....And again, Swarovski makes a great scope. Just not for me as a rule. Most of my shooting will be at deer, moose, bear, or caribou... likely killed in the AM, at a range potential of 50 to 600 yds or more on a good day. Go to Bear basin outfitters site, and look at the available lit reticule patterns (something else I like) for both the Nightforce, and the Swarovski. Swarovski offered 4 (last I knew), (with none gradiated.) and Nightforce had 10, and of the NF reticule patterns, and possibly the biggest reason I opted for it, is the NP-R2 lit reticule. At long range, I once opted for target scopes, working a range finder, and twisting a BDC dial up to get on target at 550, 600 yds.. With the nightforce NP-R2 reticule, I don't need to adjust anything anymore, I've learned that grid. I'm real comfortable with the sytem. It gives "me" confidence in the shot I'm about to take, and not "hoping" I hit it taking a poke at hold over shots as was the case for my Swavorski. just range it, and kill it. It's just something that works for me, and "I" prefer it; But the good news is,you don't have to. Nothing written here takes awy from you, or or any particular brand of scope. It's a rifle scope topic, full of opinions, with a world of variables why one shooter leans this way, or that, with none particularly any more special than the other. my "truck gun"? It's just a B-square red dot, on a remington carbine.
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Post by Bristleback on May 14, 2006 18:15:34 GMT -6
What's your opinion of the Sheffield rifle scopes, I've not shot one, had a few folks buy them and it seems that those that really take the time to understand them and get the correct fit...that being bullet BC to the right scope etc.......seem to love them?
Sounds like the Sheffield is the introductory version of your NF with less bells and whistles.
I've not gone the illuminated recticle........but pondering it for my gobbler gun.....but a red dot style scope is a far cry from the NF you have discussed...... All in all, it's nice to have confidence in your equipment: guns, loads, traps, lure etc. Good chat!
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Post by bubcat on May 15, 2006 16:51:11 GMT -6
Bristleback; I'm not sure I've ever heard of a "Sheffield" scope?
Springfield Armory's got one I believe, and Shephard... the one with the little circles in lieu of mil dots? No matter. I've never touched one, so I don't know.
I was looking hard at the "Shepard" awhile back and "thinking" about getting one, but talked myself out of it. They had 4 models with the "range finder" reticules, each tube tailored to quite a range of cartriges. The one tube I was interested in was supposedly for a 300 win mag... I started looking up the trajectories of all the "other" calibers "they" claimed would fit in that same model, and I noticed a variation of around 11-12 inches from one end to the other at 500 yds. and perhaps the model "averaged out" and would be within say 5-1/2 or 6 inches of a spectrum, but that in itself struck me as just lobbing a round out there. I got all I can do to keep one in a 6 inch circle at 600 yds, I didn't want to have to deal with another 6 to 12 inches of freeplay, and the answer to that would be to "learn" the scope... possibly knowing that you had to lift a half circle or what not on a 600 yd such and such...but,
THAT, and what I've seen of the range finding reticules, they are based on the "size" of the critter you are looking at.... but an "8 point" whitetail could be 15-16 inches deep at the brisket, and he might be 22-24 inch on a keeper, and thats hard for me to determine at 550 yds, and with a variable power scope, the "range"stated would likely vary with the power setting you were on as well.
I've played with a few of the range finding reticuled scopes, and looked at what the scope said was 500 yds, and what a laser range finder had to say about the same, and have yet to see one get closer than 60 yds to the truth. I'd call em a good guess at best,
Anybody real keen on going that route, (having mapped trajectory), would be to hook up with US Optics, let em know your caliber, bullet weight, and rifle particulars, and let em build you a custom scope, with a gradiated crosshair. That would probably be the end of the discussion.
And if your wife found out what you paid for it, might be the end of your marriage too! ;D
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Post by Bristleback on May 16, 2006 8:01:41 GMT -6
My bad, been talking to some buddies about trying a Sheffield scraping knife and thinking scopes and the such, Shepard is the scope I was referring to. I've not studdied them but if there is 6-12" of "play" at 5-600 yards I too would be skeptical.
But then there will always be those that blast us and say what kind of hunters are we........can't get any closer than 5-600 yards.....LOL and that's a whole different chapter......terrain, educated/pressured animals etc..... Group hug...LOL
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Post by bubcat on May 16, 2006 19:19:52 GMT -6
"...can't get any closer than 5-600 yards..." LMAO
I don't need to, or want to.
Anybody can shoot a broadside deer at 50 yds. How many before it gets boring?
Add a breeze, blades of grass moving, leaves fluttering, shrubs moving, or larger trees swaying in the gusts... put that same deer out 639 yds....take a deep breath, exhale... slowly.. and start doing the math... you gotta outsmart that deer, AND mother nature. The wind, the temperature, altitude, gravity...It's so much more involved than just putting an "x" on a patch of fur. Most hunters out there don't have a clue what their bullet arc is at 600 yds. (and probably don't need to either.)
And I'm no purist. Meat on the table is meat on the table, whether it got there with a bow or buckshot. Who cares. I just like the long range version of the game.
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