Decoy Dogs

[coydog]

I know some of the fellas that visit here use dogs for decoying coyotes.

Are they as valuable durring non-denning periods as they are during.
Also, if a person was looking into a dog for calling, what are some breeds you have used and training involved?

Thanks

[Cal Taylor]

There are many variables, but true decoy/denning dogs actually put too much heat to most coyotes for winter time calling. The dogs that I use all summer, aren't an asset in the winter, because they will fuzz a coyote pretty hard and go to them quite a ways away if they hear or see them. And that is what is needed for summer time work, but they will run off the majority of winter coyotes. I know that some, either tie dogs near or run a shock collar on them to make them stay close and claim that it is an asset for winter calling, and it probably doesn't really hurt anything. But I wouldn't want to do that with the dogs I use in the summer. I want a real free ranging dog and the worst thing for me is a dog that just wants to sit around in my lap. But if you had a dog that would stay around close and not go to a coyote much, he might help a little in some situations for winter time. But I still believe that for winter, proper set up will kill more coyotes than having a dog along will.

[SteveCraig]

Excellent post Cal.

[Wiley]

Cal pretty well covered this.

In most situations, decoy dogs are an ADC tool, not a recreational fur harvesting tool.

There is four senerios involved:

1. Timid dogs and timid coyotes
2. Timid dogs and aggressive coyotes.
3. Aggressive dogs and timid coyotes.
4. Aggressive dogs and aggressive coyotes.

Each situation will give you a different result.

In most healthy coyote populations DURING THE PRIME FUR SEASON, approximately 70% of the coyotes are young of the year coyotes and would fall in the timid category.

In most healthy coyote populations DURING THE PRIME FUR SEASON, 30% are adult pairs and yearlings and would fall in the semi aggressive to aggressive categories.

In most healthy coyote populations DURING THE DENNING SEASON, all are adults and run from the semi aggressive to very aggressive categories particularly when defending a denning area.

A timid dog with aggressive adults in the winter time could end up as a pile of fur and blood. I've seen it happen. That's not a very nice way to treat a dog that doesn't have the guts to stand up to an aggressive pair of adult coyotes.

An aggressive decoy dog with aggressive coyotes in the winter time can work for you but you are going to sacrifice approximately 70% of the coyote population and these adult coyotes are the first to notice when something else is wrong.

An aggressive decoy dog with young of the year coyotes in the winter will run them out of the country.

So you can see, the odds are clearly not in your favor. My advise, don't use decoy dogs for winter time hunting or it will cost you coyotes.

Now with that said, if you have a stock dog that is an absolute robot to your commands and you are very good at reading coyote body language to know what you are dealing with (adult vs. juevenile), you can kill many of those timid coyotes even in the winter with a decoy dog but you have to have absolute whistle control of your dog, you need an eletronic caller with a remote, and you need to know how to set the stage.

Here's the strategy. Let's say you think the coyotes will come from the NE because that is where you have heard them howl from and the wind is blowing from the NW. If you could approach the area without being seen and set your electronic caller with a remote up upwind of you (NW) along with your well trained stock dog. The timid coyotes that approach from the NE will try to circle downwind of the caller and the dog that you have moving back and forth with whistle commands. When they do circle down wind, there you be. "POP FLOP".

You place yourself downwind of the dog and remote about 300 - 500 yards on the vantage point that the timid coyotes will try to use to both see and smell the dog. You use the terrain to make it very easy for the coyotes that come from the NE to circle SE of the caller and dog where you will be waiting. If the coyotes happen to be aggressive adults and they go straight to the dog and caller instead of trying to circle downwind, you sneak in and shoot them while they are being entertained by the dog. Most stock dogs that are real good at following commands may not be aggressive enough to handle an adult pair so you better get your ass in gear to save the dog's ass. Most coyotes won't try to kill a border collie without giving you enough time but you better be able to see what's going on. If they start kicking your dog's ass, I doubt he's gonna be your "huckleberry" the next time you go calling. LOL!

The reason I gave you that as an example is to show you that you can be successful at it with most coyotes even in the winter but you have to know exactly what you are working with and how to handle it. I have seen very few decoy dogs that were trained well enough not to chase coyotes but all dogs are not the same.

Again, most decoy dogs will run your young coyotes out of the country in the winter time so my advise would be to leave it alone unless you really know what the heck you're doing.


~SH~

[Wiley]

Please archive this one under "decoy dogs" when it dies down T'man. Thanks!


~SH~

[Zach]

This thread needs to be archived. It has already covered decoy dogs as thoroughly as any information I have come across. Short of being "in the know" through ADC guys with experience on their side, there is not much information out there. I think the moderators and other professionals should keep that in mind when somebody asks about decoy dogs. They have no history or source of reference where they may have previously gained insight about them. It is obvious the train of thought by most professionals is that these dogs are a tool and should be treated and thought of in this manner. If they were part of my livelihood I would feel the same. Let me present what I think is the rational for somebody wanting a "recreational" decoy dog, such as myself. I love dogs. I love coyote hunting. I loved the movie "Old Yeller". That dog could do it all damn it! Sometimes I coyote hunt all day and coon hunt that night. So I did my research, found some breeders, and went out and bought me "Old Yeller". He is a year and a half now. Just a couple weeks ago he treed two coons while we were cutting firewood. On another website, I posted a couple pictures of the coyote he helped me decoy a couple of weeks ago. Sometimes he goes coyote hunting with me and sometimes he stays home. After he has worked a little over a dozen coyotes for me I can tell you I am hooked on the whole process. It is an amazing thing to witness. So I own "Old Yeller" and I am having a lot of fun with him. Maybe he wouldn't be taken serious by Cal (who knows decoy dogs!) or other professionals and that makes sense. But I don't have the luck to hunt with Cal and I'm not out to impress anyone. If he runs off one or two stinky coyotes it isn't a big loss to me. I know he can hold his own, he's proven that. So I may be a little ignorant about decoy dogs but as they say Ignorance is bliss. ;D

[Zach]

Rereading this thread I realized the question of what breeds work best wasn't really answered. Here are a few breeds I know people have used.

Dorns
Mountain Curs
Blackmouth Curs
Blue Heeler
Border Collie
Crosses of these

I think any dog used needs to listen well enough to come back on command, be that a whistle, bark, whatever. I doubt a hound or most terriers would do that.

I would like to know the worst dogs that you guys have had, tried, or witnessed.

[k9]

I don't get involved in denning but have watched denning dogs do thier thing. I think my Airedales would just stay and fight the coyotes, rather than do the back and forth chasing game.

[Wiley]

The worse dogs I have seen are aeirdales that are too agressive and hounds that are too stupid (when the nose turns on the brain shuts off).

My choice is mountain curs because they are a manageable hounds. The bulk of the decoy dogs in SD, WY, and ND that are worth their salt are mountain curs.

You couldn't give me a Dorn dog in comparison to a cur. A Dorn dog is nothing more than aeirdale and hound crossed mutts. The guys that I know that had Dorn dogs traded them for mountain curs once they had made a comparison.

The guys that like Dorn dogs have never compared them to a good working cur.


~SH~

[trappnman]

Wiley- We both know a man that lives a little north of you that would strongly disagree with your assessment of suitable dogs.

[Wiley]

Like I said, the many ADC men that I know from ND, WY and SD that use decoy dogs day in and day out are running curs, not mutts.

How could anyone make an objective comparison between two breeds of dogs, let alone the bloodlines within a breed, unless he'd used both?


~SH~

[Zagman]

How could anyone make an objective comparison between two breeds of dogs, let alone the bloodlines within a breed, unless he'd used both?

Well said, and applies to callers, traps, trucks, anything and everything.....

Zagman

[trappnman]

The man I was referring to was Odon. After talking to him extensively at NE the past couple of years, and his offer to sell me a pup out of his next litter of airedales, I assume he likes them.

[SteveCraig]

I've used both. I'll keep my airedale.

[richc]

Guys,
I have seen Wiley's Mountain cur's do their thing. Not on a video either, I mean right there in person. If I were twenty years younger, I would talk with Wiley and try to trick him in to taking my new mountain cur pup for a year and let it work with his already trained dogs. Where would I get my new pup? I would ask Wiley to help me sweet talk a mutual friend out in Wyoming into selling me one real cheap.

The way I see it however, decoy dogs are not for recreational callers. These dogs are trained special for ADC work during the summer.

[3n]

Had one of O'Gorman's dogs..liked it fine.
Have a leopard cur cross that I don't like.
Would like to try a Kemmer Mountain Cur.

[Timber]

I have a Kemmer's Mtn. Cur/ Blue Lacy cross. He works well.


Tim

[3n]

Timber...how big is your dog?

[Timber]

He's about 45-50 pounds and 25-26" at the shoulder. I use him as a decoy, trap line dog, and a denning dog for coon. He also loves to herd the livestock at home.

He's just turned 3 and is starting to really come into his own.

Tim

[Wiley]

The man I was referring to was Odon. After talking to him extensively at NE the past couple of years, and his offer to sell me a pup out of his next litter of airedales, I assume he likes them.

Odon has never compared an aeirdale to a cur T'man. Odon used to have to stake his aeirdales down at the call stand because they were too agressive and running the coyotes out of the country. What good is that? No thanks!

CUR BRING COYOTE BACK, AEIRDALE RUN COYOTES OUT OF COUNTRY, AEIRDALE TOO AGRESSIVE, ME HUNT WITH CUR.


~SH~