Basics.........

[trappnman]

tried a little calling, little being operative word- but had some questions come up.

1) how worried are you about vehicle noise? Do you park and walk over the hill? Within sight

2) if you used a howler- would you use it every stand?

3) if so, when?

4) to you prefer being up high..or low when calling?

5) most important, what are the sequence times? Most seem to agree on 15-20 minutes per normal stand. What pattern of calling, waiting do you do?

[lb]

Those are all good questions and the subject of much debate. LB

[blakcoyote]

I'm not too worried about vehicle noise,but I do try to keep noise to a minimium,like talking.One of my recent stands,I was with my partner and as we were leaving the truck,I accidently hit the panic button on my key chain,the horn started going off.Well after shutting it off we debated whether our stand was shot since it was only 50-60 yrds off the road.We called it anyway,and in 5 min. a coyote came barreling in to within 35yds of my buddy who was down wind from me and between me and the truck.Only thing is he missed using a 22-250 bolt handgun.He said he never had one come that close and that fast and he was shakin too bad to shoot decent.He also shoots an AR-15 and it's loud when you have to put a round in the chamber because the action needs to slam shut.But it doesnt seem to hurt much as far as noise goes.Alot of places I hunt my truck is within view of me,but not for incoming critters.

As far as the howler goes,this time of year I use it every stand,either howling,kiyi's,or just plain puppy whines,but I still use a distress,the dogs here arent hunted with calls heavily(yet) around here,so I dont think it spooks them like it does in heavily called areas.I also like using fawn bleats this time of year.

I'm an impatient sob when it comes to sitting,but usually give a stand 20 min. this time of year,but it depends on alot of things here,if the snow is deep and fluffy or soft,I'll give the stand time,say 30-40 min.because it takes longer for a critter to move through it,but if the snow is hard and they can run on top,20 min. is about all I'll stay,it use to be 15 min,but I seem to be getting a few late comers by staying longer.Most times though the coyotes are there within 4 min. I've already had them damn near in my lap within a minute of calling,seriously 12' was the closest a coyote has come to me on a dead run,it was a little too dark and all I heard was his feet hitting the frozen ground,it sounded like a flag flappin in the breeze,I got him,but didnt get the one right behind him,it was pretty fast action,if I had a bad heart I would have been dead ;D,a fox was 4' from my boot when it shot it once.

As far as sequence,I just start out with rabbit distress,blowing maybe a 20-30 sec sequence and wait another 20-30 sec before blowing again,if nothing shows up in say 5min,I increase the volume and intensity for another 5 min. then wait about 5-10 min. in silence waiting to see if something comin slow.Then maybe hit a howl or a kiyi after that and wait a few more minutes before heading out.This time of year,I'll give a howl right off and wait about 5 min. to see if any takers will respond by howling or come charging in,then give another or just start whinning or through in some kiyi's.I dont use an e-caller,cant really afford one and cant justify the price for myself right now.But someday I'll get one an add it to my bag of tricks.What helped me in the beginning was I picked up a cottontail distress tape and a coyote vocalization tape,and played them in my cassette player in the truck when ever I went some where,wife thought I was a little touched,and still does,lol. But it did help get things down in my head and helped when I practiced on my calls.Now,I just do what feels right in whatever situation I'm hunting,I even have a call that I can mimic kitten mews,that works good around farms.
As far as taking a stand,I like to get a little elevated to see down and farther away,but not high enough to be sky lighted,if thats not a possibility I'll take level ground.I dont like sitting low because your looking somewhat up,and have more of a tendency to show your face that always reflects light,I like my head down,even with a face mask,you still run the risk of exposing your neck,skin just reflects light,and coyotes have a sharp eye.A couple other things about sitting low is,especially in farm country,if a coyot hangs up on a hill or something where he is skylighted I wont take the shot,because if you miss or have a pass thru that bullet is going somewhere and doesnt have a backstop for safety reasons,the other thing is for me hunting in a full moon,if a yote is above you and theres a tree line behind him,you wont see him,unless you can use a light.Looking down somewhat even slight has a big advantage in alot of respects,but safety is one of my bigger reason.

I hope I didnt ramble too much for ya.

[trappnman]

good post Duane.

LB- I WANT to hear the debate. You aren't shy are you...LOL

[blakcoyote]

Thanks Steve.I've only been caling for around 12 years and it's mostly been done in my little world.Seeing what others post on other forums,I feel pretty lucky as far as competition goes with both calling and trapping,I pretty much have free reign around here.I recently went down by HappyPlumber and did a hunt with him and my BinL,we didnt call anything in,but it gave me an oppurtunity to see different calling ground and what other things come up in different areas.It was 1 degree above zero with a good 15mph-20mph wind and it was cold.My BinL broke through the ice,and then locked the keys in the truck with it running.It took a 1/2 hour to get into the truck,HP and I still had our hunting gear on so we where pretty warm,but my BinL took his all off and it was in the truck,I guess he had an incentive to get back in,lol.We managed to get a piece of fence wire through the door jam to hit a power window.He's getting keyless entry installed now,LoL.But it was an enjoyable hunt and I got to see some different country,and plan on getting down there some more,because I keep thinking about what would be the best way to call that area,it does have a high population of people and houses,I live in no mans land compared to down there.I have alot of calling experience,but limited to my area only so I'm limited in that respect to a degree.I need to get out more. ;D

[lb]

lol. No, I'm not shy, I have a considered opinion on all those questions, I just figured I have been laying it on a little thick for a tenderfoot; maybe I should let someone else get a word in edgewise?

Good hunting. LB

[trappnman]

Ah leonard- I know who you are- I'd be more than interested in hearing your views, and I know others would too.

[HappyPlumber]

Black coyote, I have been too busy building stretchers that I haven't made time to go out calling yet. I have been working on a few plans though. I've been thinking all this calling stuff through and I think I have some of this figured out for my area. There are a lot of coyotes in the heavy thicket type swamp in the fall which I used to see years ago when we would bowhunt for deer. I think those could be hunted wiuth a shotgun sitting in a tree with the caller on the ground. I know all the areas because I used to trap some of them as well. There are a lot of open areas where people complain about coyotes howling at different times of the year. I think a lot of these yotes come into farmers feed lots when their cows are calfing. I also think that some of the areas I know would work good for fox because they would probably be too small and close to the roads for coyotes. I'm now thinking that the fox are now located in smaller patches of woods, swamps ect. where the yotes aren't. HP

[blakcoyote]

happyplumber said:

I also think that some of the areas I know would work good for fox because they would probably be too small and close to the roads for coyotes. I'm now thinking that the fox are now located in smaller patches of woods, swamps ect. where the yotes aren't. HP

Not to hijack this thread,but I was thinking the same thing when we were riding around the country side.

[richc]

1) how worried are you about vehicle noise? Do you park and walk over the hill? Within sight

2) if you used a howler- would you use it every stand?

3) if so, when?

4) to you prefer being up high..or low when calling?

5) most important, what are the sequence times? Most seem to agree on 15-20 minutes per normal stand. What pattern of calling, waiting do you do?
--------------------------------
1. I normally drive a fairly new 4x4 pickup, so don't worry too much about engine noise. I am always careful to not slam the door when I get out of the truck. I hide my truck as well as I can, so that incoming predators don't spook from it. Driving up a hill almost to the top, and walking over to other side of the hill to call is one of my favorite ways to do it.

2 and 3. I use a howler on every stand except during fall months when pups are out hunting, and early spring before pups are born. I begin with a lonesome howl or three, and then wait in silence for a few minutes. If no customers yet, I repeat the lonesome howls, and wait a few minutes in silence again. Still no customer? Then I use prey distress screams. I never look at my watch while on stand, but twenty minutes on stand is about average.

4. I call from high places whenever I can.

5. I talked about this one a little bit already, but would like to add something. If I call and kill a coyote, I continue calling for another five minutes or so before going over to pick up my prize.

[lb]

1) how worried are you about vehicle noise? Do you park and walk over the hill? Within sight

reply: I don't worry at all about vehicle noise, coyotes hear vehicles all the time, usually hold their ground. I have seen some highly pressured areas where they ran from vehicles, but if you have a choice, call someplace else. Some people are very concerned about hiding a vehicle, but again, that has a lot to do with how pressured the coyotes are? I have (many many times) called coyotes from my truck, in broad daylight. Not many people have access to this prime hunting, but all I'm saying is that a coyote doesn't necessarily recoil in horror from a parked vehicle. If they seem to, in your area, that is the time to look at a solution. On the other hand, I have walked hundreds of yards from my truck and called coyotes that came to the call, crossed the two track in front of my truck, and never even looked at it. Short answer: depends.

2) if you used a howler- would you use it every stand?

3) if so, when?

reply: Okay, a howl seldom hurts, but it can change the response. Begin your stand with silence for a couple minutes and then use a non threatening howl. After a short time, begin your distress sounds; probably at reduced volume? A coyote that hears a howl may not barrel into your stand, they approach cautiously, looking for the strange coyote, but they already know where the distress sounds are coming from. If you don't howl, you see eagar coyotes within four minutes and I start to lose interest in seven minutes. With howling, you should probably stay on stand for at least 12-15 minutes. A coyote can walk a mile in a lot less time. A howl every five minutes is what I usually do. Short answer: a howl is almost never a negative.

4) to you prefer being up high..or low when calling?

reply: My first choice, with a rifle, is a location with a view. You want to get down in those coolees, casual hunting, use your 10 gauge. On a contest, I would have a rifle for scanning the hillsides, and a shotgun in my hands.

5) most important, what are the sequence times? Most seem to agree on 15-20 minutes per normal stand. What pattern of calling, waiting do you do?

reply: I already covered part of this question, I think it's a numbers game; more stands means more responders. More responders means more shot opportunities and more opportunities usually means more dead coyotes. However, every stand is different. If you have that gut feeling, let the stand play out for twenty minutes, although I automatically make slightly longer stands in the middle of the day. First three or four hours of the morning, twelve minute stands, max. After that, you can go to 15-20 minutes, hoping to snag a few latecomers that happen to be moving. For me, day in day out, I probably see 75% of the animals within the first four minutes and another 15-20% in less than eight minutes. So, doing the math, I guess that hanging around an extra five minutes will get you an occasional coyote, so it's up to you whether it is worth the time invested. The caveat is that on some days, they aren't coming to you on a string, they are cautious and that requires an awareness. If you know your area, and know coyotes are present but they aren't showing, you need to get out your bag of tricks and plan on staying on stand a little longer. In that case, I think twenty minutes is a good length, at least until they start running again....and that's another thing. In heavy concentrations, they act like fish that aren't biting and suddenly go on a feeding frenzy. A good bite doesn't last forever, and this brings up that barometric and weather question: reasons why they do what they do, and our theories about that stuff.

Sorry to ramble, this is only personal opinion, other opinions are welcome and respected. LB

[trappnman]

thanks all for al lthe info- a coupleo f more, related queries:

1) on say a 12 minute stand- how many times do you use a call?

2) can you make a BAD distress call? I know that howlers, if not done right, cause more damage than good. But wouldn't any distress call appear natural?

3) Do you use the same patterns, calls every time you use that stand or area? in other words, do coyotes learn to avoid distress calls?

[blakcoyote]

For me I'll;
1) Call probably 8-10 min with little 20 second breaks through out,then rest it for 5.Another thing I like to do is blow softly and slightly long to get a low out of breath tired moan,like the life is about leave.

2) With a closed reed I dont think so,and not really with a closed reed either,you'll sound like something.

3)I pretty much stick with the same thing,but use an assortment of different calls throughout the day,each call has it's own sound.But I've also used the same call all day as well with good luck.I think that they dont get immune to distress calls unless there pressured or had bad experiences with them.I use to think after trying a stand a few times,that they were getting call shy,but then I started having coyotes show up on stands that I havent called in one coyote in 5,6,10 tries,then all of a sudden it's a hot stand.I think it's just like trapping if there not there they wont come.And the reason there not there like they were in years past could for a number of reasons just like trapping,crop changes,weather conditions like a warm winter where there not hurting for food and arent around the deer yards because the deer arent yarded up either,or there feeding off a carcass 2 miles away.

lb reminded me of a time I was driving down a back road and a coyote crossed in front of me and was heading across a cut corn field.I pulled over in plain veiw,pulled out the rifle and a howler,and got off the road and sat down,all in site of the yote.He was still trotting away about 200yds off.I started doing puppy whines,and the coyote turned around and started trotting towards me.He got within 60yds and sat down and just looked at me.I popped him with the 22mag.I wish they all were that easy,and dumb. ;D

[lb]

1) on say a 12 minute stand- how many times do you use a call?

reply: this depends on what you are using. Hand calls, you can go with the realism, modulate, quiver your sound, trail off, get desperate, etc. Actually, it doesn't matter a whole lot....unless you have a hang up. With electronic, continuous is the way to go, a monotonous wah wah wah will bring them in just as good as all the realism. Now, what I do is both, start with a lost pup howl, start my first sequence with a hand call, pause for a short time and start the machine. After that I frequently call over the machine, as it's running. I will never agree with "pauses" for pauses sake. The only good reason to pause is that it is impossible to call continuously with a hand call. You have to take a breath sometimes, and you don't want to have to shoot when you are out of breath. Hand calling continuously, all day is a tough job.

2) can you make a BAD distress call? I know that howlers, if not done right, cause more damage than good. But wouldn't any distress call appear natural?

reply: You are correct, howling (generally), you only need maybe three sounds? The rest, you should have a clear understanding of where and when, or they can hurt you. With hand calls, I really don't think it is possible to make a bad sound? Rank amateurs can call coyotes with a hand call.

3) Do you use the same patterns, calls every time you use that stand or area? in other words, do coyotes learn to avoid distress calls?

Reply: I never call on one place often enough, so they never get wise. But, as soon as you see shy coyotes, somebody is hitting them pretty hard, and you are better off hunting somewhere else, or switching to night hunting, or calling at first light, or switching to believable, but unusual sounds. In southwest conditions, BLM and hunted, I have a fair amount of luck with baby javalina distress, kid goat, pup gray fox; that sort of thing. But, no, I don't change what I do, for the sake of variety, unless it isn't working. Now, the most I would call the same exact spot, water tank, road intersection, corral, etc. is once per month; but there is nothing wrong with day calling that spot in the morning, for instance, and doing another stand, sometime the following night. I hunt around the clock, just pause long enough to switch gear and clothing, because night hunting is nothing like day hunting.

Good hunting. LB

[trappincoyotes39]

Locating your coyotes will save alot of time and also empty stands can be kept to a minimum by doing so. I also like the thrill of knowing were they are and get setup on them to bring the advantage into my favor over just blind calling.

[lb]

Wiley does that. And calls upwind.

I always cold call in previously scouted prime areas, and call downwind. Different strokes....in different areas. LB

[renny1]

If you start with the howler, would that preclude any bobcat response? Thanks

[lb]

I know you didn't mean it that way, but that is a loaded question. We can't prove a negative. In other words, there may be coyotes as well as bobcats that are within hearing, yet they don't come to the call for unfathomable reasons?

On the other hand, there has been enough times that a bobcat came in on a stand where a howl was used. That doesn't prove anything either way, if you are looking for a straight yes or no answer.

Bobcats hear coyotes howling every day and don't run the other way. Therfore, I tend to think that, as the cat approaches cautiously, most of the time, he ain't scared of a coyote howl, especially a lone howl or a lost pup owl.

If you are calling so much that a bobcat is intimidated, you are probably also scaring most of the coyotes in the area. I would only howl perhaps three times total on a fifteen minute stand. That's not enough to intimidate a bobcat. Other people might do more, or possibly less?

Short answer, go ahead and howl and I bet you will snag a few cats.

Good hunting. LB

[Wiley]

1) how worried are you about vehicle noise? Do you park and walk over the hill? Within sight

The affect of vehicle noise will depend on how common vehicle noises are in the area called and whether or not coyotes associate those vehicle noises with danger or whether they simply see them as part of the environment.


2) if you used a howler- would you use it every stand?

3) if so, when?

I howl on every stand simply to locate coyotes if nothing else.


4) to you prefer being up high..or low when calling?

I prefer to have visibility but remain below the horizon. Some country won't allow any elevation. Wind and sunlight are my priorities. Terrain is secondary.


5) most important, what are the sequence times? Most seem to agree on 15-20 minutes per normal stand. What pattern of calling, waiting do you do?

I usually howl and wait 3 minutes. Howl again and wait three minutes, then go into a series of distress calls. I usually wait about 3 minutes between calling. That limits the movement and helps me to locate the coyotes.

How long to stay at a stand will depend on how far you think sound is traveling. As a rule of thumb I usually stay about 15 minutes.


6) can you make a BAD distress call? I know that howlers, if not done right, cause more damage than good. But wouldn't any distress call appear natural?

Yes you can make a bad distress call! If you sound like everyone else in an area where coyotes have been called in and missed, they COULD avoid you like the plague.

If you sound very realistic in an area of high rabbit populations or whatever prey sound you are using, you can usually still call coyotes because coyotes may have had more good experiences with those sounds than bad. Keep in mind most of their good experiences with distress sounds occurr at night, not during the day.


7) Do you use the same patterns, calls every time you use that stand or area? in other words, do coyotes learn to avoid distress calls?

Yes coyotes learn to avoid certain sounds coming from certain areas if they have had bad experiences with those sounds.

Don't overanalyze Steve! LOL!


~SH~

[trappnman]

LOl- I try not to, but want to be leaning in the right direction ...

reminds me of a problem I had years ago. Bought a SU carb for my bike, a constant velocity type carb. It was always a "little" off. It had 1 main outside adjustment, but it seemed funky, and I was always going back and forth, not knowing which way I SHOULD be going. Finally figured out that the adjustment screw was for the main mixture as I thought, but worked in reverse of most carbs. It adjusted the gas flow, not the air. So turning it to lean it up, was actually enrichening the mixture.

Flash forward to calling- I know its a learning experince, but I could sure save a lot of time by knowing which way the value should be turned..... THEN I could experiment, knowing I was on the right track, instead of 180 opposite.

heres another newbie question- are all calls basically 1 of 2 things- 1) howler or 2) distress (or are distress calls separate from curiousity calls like woodpeckers, or whatever.

I think I sound good on my Rich Cronk handmade antler call.... assuming the coyotes aren't spooked by other hunters...CAN I make a bad series of calls?

Or would a "bad" series of calls be no more than a curiosity type of a sound?

Or just go out and blow the damn thing....?