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Post by SgtWal on Dec 12, 2005 15:49:24 GMT -6
I notice that at least one company now makes a cushin grip in #1 size. And that in parts of Canada footholds are ilegal for raccoons. I also hear that no trap in current production is passing the BMP testing standards for Raccoons. If I understand correctly the goals of the BMP were to find traps that could catch and hold at least 60% of the target animals that fired the trap, with no major injury. I would think then that Bodygrip traps, like in Canada, or whole body cage traps would be the answer. These would easily meet the standards. But then they would also run afoul of some local and State laws, as well as being cost and size prohibitive for large scale trapping operations. Should we maybe take a look back? Say to the Triple Clutch and web jaw designs of a century ago? These were the trap designes old Frank Conibear hurt with his body grip. Perhaps the circle has come full turn. I know that those working so hard on the BMP are good hearted folks, but I often feel that the long liner and pro are being left out of the thought process. Re-tooling a couple dozen traps is only a few hundred bucks. Replacing 1200 is a different level of impact all together. If, God forbid, my state were to re-write the trapping rules based on the BMP standards. And it could happen, we have a couple folks over there who feel we should be on the "cutting edge". It would decimate the trappers in the field and greatly reduce our effectivness as a managment tool. Possibly beyond recovery. Are we making progress here? Are we actually finding the right tools to use? Tools trappers can buy not have to build or special order. Or are we just wasting time and money on a set of papers that will not satisfy anyone?
wayne
wayne
wayne
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Post by trappnman on Dec 12, 2005 17:59:59 GMT -6
I think you made so good points.
What I myself will do- is to look at each bmp as it comes out. If the data in it matches my own personal results- things I KNOW to be true and not something based on a few animals in a far off state- I'll endorse it.
If on the other hand I know the bmp to contain fallacys and ..well, amateur methods- I'll call it as I see fit.
And thats the duty of every trapper out there- if something that we know to be false is being forced on us, we can either accept it or reject it.
The coon bmps are leading us down the road to what Canad has I haven't a doubt in the world o nthat. Some could call it a ocnspiracy to NOT have 1.5s pass- heavens knows, with the protacal set up so that trap and any reasonble multi species traps failed, it would be an easy leap. But I won't go that far. I have to think thats it simply the acceptance that a coon is a coyote is a muskrat- and those not realizing that just as coyote trappers tried to reduce injuries over the years- and not for humane puposes, but to increase catches- so have serious coon trappers. Why do I try to not have my coon chew? Cause I'm a hell of a guy? Well, I AM, but the reason isn't that- its more selfserving- reduced/eliminated chewing means MORE coon in the shed. To not to test those methods is foolish-
The coyote ones are full of methods and circumstances- why else would larger traps be tested and apporved for the coyote that is half the size of an eastern coyote- the exact opposite of what it shold be. Methods. Chec ktimes- THATS the reason. And the reason there were TWO coyote bmps- is the influence of all the gov coyote men. Of that- I have no doubt.
Unfortunately, the coon men had no such political pull.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 12, 2005 20:56:25 GMT -6
Sgt wal you have the point wrong that no production trap has passed for coons some have, the 1.5 dbl jaw, coon guard 1.5, and the #11 have all passed the coon BMP along with the grizz and the other enclosed traps.
No group is being left out, this is not nor was started as a way to end trapping or long line trappers, we don't know the out come becuase just as we can't predict the future with out BMP's the states will do what is "best" for themselves.
I guess my question would be what "tools" have you heard of moving in the direction of major retooling or traps that need to be built or special ordered are you referring too?
I say it will only satisfy those with an open mind and ones looking to strengthen trapping for many generations to come. If we are all out for the good of "now" and not worrying about the future, then I feel we loose with or without the BMP"s. Remember we are early into this process, this isn't something that will be done in the next 24-36 months and states either stating we follow verbatium the BMP's or we disallow all data, this will be something that takes shape over a long time spand and to educate those that are less informed about trapping. Part is the BMP's the other part is the videos that the IAFWA has come out with promoting trapping and the key role it plays in society in the year 2005 and beyond.
Canada is mirroring closer to the EU their standards than the US by a wide margin. The reason being is a big% of our fur and theirs leaves through Canada. We are the US and can't worry about others, we must do what is right for our resources.
Tman please tell me all those methods in the coyote BMP? Circumstances as well. The reason is larger traps were tested are a coyote is a hard fighter doesn't matter East/west and I'll say lb to lb the western coyote fights a trap harder and longer than a midwest or eastern coyote. Call it because of habitat and wide open and being panicked about being out in the open spaces, but they fight hard. Also we can use larger traps because domestic issues are less out west and more public acceptance than states back East. The whole reason behind trap jaw restrictions is public perception, but again that is up to the states to decide and they do and have for years.
The 2 coyote BMP's have influance because of the predator control that takes place out west is very dominate compaired to the midwest and east coast. You had private control and fur trappers and ranchers all wanting a western BMP. The ranchers who are livestock dominate for there incomes, are real worried when you try and limit predator control, they are the reason we can still use m-44's and they still complain about 1080 being takin away in the early 70's. Yes they have pull because they have seen the damage and want to protect their investment the best they can and if a trapper tells them we need to be able to use these tools, then the ranchers will help to see those tools remain.
Coyotes West to East still a big gap in peoples thinking will be until all the open range sheep and cattle are gone! Those ranchers want and need the protection they recieve plain and simple and it is a PR tool as much as a predator control issue. The bottom line is the traps passed with flying colors even on the smaller coyotes, so I don't see a problem if the state allows the traps because you can't fault the testing or the trappers the state allows x amount of jaw spread, that was decided long before the BMP's. I guess if one wants to use #3 in their state look at a law change, but you can;t penalize those that have more open regs right?
Yes the coon doesn't strike the fear of loss in to many peoples eyes, dead lambs are an eye sore and very visable loss, coons eating some corn just doesn't raise the hackles as much. I have no answer for that.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 12, 2005 21:05:22 GMT -6
pages 5-8- methods and techniques.
You had private control and fur trappers and ranchers all wanting a western BMP
Who were these private people that were able to get what THEY wanted in the bmp process?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 12, 2005 22:15:43 GMT -6
Criteria considered for species prioritization included: 1) the type and proportion of trapping systems predominantly used; 2) the total harvest in this country; 3) the importance to the trapper; 4) the amount and type of economic damage caused; 5) the urgency and opportunity for additional work from the biologists' perspective; and 6) the availability and quality of data from past research programs
Traps are selected for evaluation by state wildlife agency biologists based on their knowledge of the technique and using data from a survey conducted by IAFWA in 1992 that documents the ownership and use of traps by trappers in the United States. We also invite trappers to recommend traps and modifications for evaluation. Trappers are often aware of new models on the market, many of which are specifically intended to improve animal welfare and may not be widely available but are promising designs for trapping BMPs. Scientists from the USDA National Wildlife Research Center are also involved with this program.
Tman I don't see methods or techniques addressed? I see trap mods and swivling issues. I see a trap that for .30 cents more each would have 3 swivels from the factory. I see lamination and padding which are apart of the tool and can be found from many trapline supply houses. I see pan tension addressed again the tool not a setting technique or method. Everything I see has to do with the tool, I did see were they stated when stakes are used, but nothing as to them being the only or recommended practice. The only other mention was to set away from people passing by and domestics, avoid trails used by people nothing new there, prevent entanglment to avoid injury to the trapped animal. I didn't see were they stated we recommend stakes, or drags, or this set or this habitat requires a,b,or c to be done for "best" results. It states "performance of anchoring devices was not specifically evaluated," however methods are for informational purposes. So you could see what they used for the study, but the anchor was not a part of the testing nor do they have any data on the anchoring devices. It all was about the tool not the methods of setting or the sets or use areas, except for no entanglement to cause additonal harm to the captured animal. Fences and the such. This was to make it easier to do the necocropsy and not have to tell trap damage from other non related damage.
Actually in the eastern coyote BMP I find little if anything to do with methods or circumstances, aside from what "most" trappers do as mentioned.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 13, 2005 7:22:14 GMT -6
If you will not accept the obvious, something that everyone but you agrees on- then we have no debate.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 13, 2005 8:07:48 GMT -6
I don't see the obvious, please explain and fill me in on all the methods and circumstances of the Eastern coyote BMP. Tell me what you read on the pages you listed, compair it to the coon BMP and their is a night and day differance in wordage and actual things one must do to test the 1.5
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Post by MChewk on Dec 13, 2005 11:29:21 GMT -6
Wayne brought up coon and cage trapping....Humane? Passed standards?.....like others I have seen SOME coon paws that would not be very good for public relations. I wonder what the concensus would be by other trappers using cages for many more hours/days in the field than the BMP testers spent?
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Post by bblwi2 on Dec 13, 2005 11:57:29 GMT -6
Yes I used to use cages a lot, now there are less coons in the barns I trap, for many reasons. MChewk, I have seen similar front foot and up to the elbow skin damage done by many coons in cage traps on a 24 hour always AM check. Mostly females and or YOY with the most damage on the feet, and legs. Some large boars that try to tear the cages apart have several teeth that are totally broke off also. Not real good for the animal, not efficient and or time effective , but does not have self-mutilation as the cause. This seems to be the big issue with coons. What the coon is able to do unto itself. It seems that actually body damage in total is less significant than how it occurs. There needs to be some science into that thought process.
Bryce
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Post by MChewk on Dec 13, 2005 17:35:44 GMT -6
Bryce, wonder what the damage score would be on some of that VISIBLE damage we and others sometimes see? Which brings me to my next point....Why is it important to be so scientific as far as the necropsies? Now don't get me wrong injury scores might have some value to trap manufacturers who might want to know if their spring tension for TRAP A is too strong. Or if TRAP A is experiencing alot of pullouts, malfunctions,etc.. My point is visible injuries to passerbys or clients I believe has more merit than internal injuries. Why?... because a wild animal usual has more internal problems ( parasites, old injuries from vehicles, hunters, fighting injuries,etc...) than anybody really cares about. So why would JOE PUBLIC care about if the injury score for TRAP A was too high? What do you think?
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Post by coyoteman37 on Dec 13, 2005 18:46:25 GMT -6
trapping is like anything once the yuppies and politics get involved it all goes to hell, they dont suffer trappers do. I am sure millions of coon were caught in 1.5 before now so why change for some yuppie ? If he dont trap and dont want to see it dont go there dont look. we as trappers are not asking for this so it shouldnt be forced on us period.
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Post by coyoteman37 on Dec 13, 2005 18:50:00 GMT -6
besides that I see alot of UGLY women in public should they be allowed to walk around without a mask ? ugly women are offensive to me so lets make a new law if she is ugly she must wear a mask !!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 13, 2005 19:31:41 GMT -6
cm37 you are out there my man. I'm sure glad your not the spokesman for trappers nationwide or their would be 80 tons of traps going to the steel recycling bin in a hurry!
Mchewk the testing doesn't look at much beside the foot that was caught and obvious body damage, if it isn't trap related then it has no bearing on the final score. The visable stuff gets you the wrong score and that is how it is setup, amputation and broken teeth depending on how severe are the worst.
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Post by conibear on Dec 13, 2005 19:43:42 GMT -6
TC35 I don't know much about the BMP and I'm not going to lie and say I do. How do they decide what traps are best. The ones that cause less damage to the foot etc,etc. Thanks
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Post by coyoteman37 on Dec 13, 2005 20:10:35 GMT -6
sorry I think its the other way around. there is nothing wrong with the traps used today. somethings are just always going to be. animals in traps are always going to do everything they can to escape. we as trappers need to stand up for ourselves and stop letting yuppies and people with some education from a BOOK rule us. All the mods in the world will never satisfy a bunny hugger period. I baseplate laminate top and bottom and offset because thats what works for me. why cant you 35 see what so many trappers are against and get on board with us instead of them ? If I were spokesman I would be fighting for what works for trappers not the anties. what do you use do you feel that your check period is fine for you? If trappers were allowed to use conibears on land people would stop letting their dogs run loose. as far as coon dead no olsen scale to worry about there. dogs and snares I have released plenty . no injury so where is the problem ? again people who do not take care of their pets are the problem. by the way why did the nta get out of the testing? please tell me what your state regs are. It REALLY bothers me and makes me suspecious of someone in the west that supposedly traps someone who has the least amount of restrictions is trying to give other trappers the BIGGEST bunch of bull since the cattle drives faded out of texas. whos side are you on anyway?
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Post by bblwi on Dec 13, 2005 21:55:00 GMT -6
I disagree with some of the statements that it is just a bunch of yuppies and book learner types that are pushing trapping law changes and or BMPs. Maybe a process such as BMP yes they may be. I happen to know trappers in WI who do not trap large amounts of fur but have standard of trauma, mutilation, injury that are far above those needed to pass the BMP process. There are not trappers who will ever make a living trapping and they would not run 300 traps on 3 day checks etc. etc. They do however practice unbelievably high standards on how they trap and treat animals. They have much less tolerance for the injury listings that we read about from biologists that are in favor of the BMP process. I personally consider them excellent trappers and great mentors.
Bryce
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Post by trappnman on Dec 14, 2005 6:51:33 GMT -6
cage traps have HORRIBLE bmps scores.
since they don't run 300 traps on 3 day checks, they must indeed be our moral superiors and know what is good for us, the nation and the world.
35- get a dictionary and look up methods and techniques...[erhaps the obvious will become so. What next.... are you going to debate the definition of is.?
please bryce- tell me how those standards of injury, trauma, mortality, etc are better than the bmp standrds on coon, and what they do, besides not run traps, to achieve this?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 14, 2005 8:27:30 GMT -6
37 it is not the antis and bunny huggers that the BMP's are trully catering too, we are loooking to inform the majority on trapping that would be the middle of the population the general public!!! To state what you did would turn the majority away from trappers and to the side of the anti's. You see they wil get their information from one side or the other, and if/when a vote comes up in their state to keep trapping or end trapping we want them to have the factual infomation on traps and what they can do and how what we use now is humane and showing we care about animal welfare. Just because we are killing all critters, we must also be concerned with public perception, that is why states have wanton waste game laws on there books, nothing more than more than public percption.
I'm on the side of trappers 37 and I want generations of new trappers and by using the BMP's we can take many steps to ensure that happens. The coyote BMP's were do you find a problem with it? What trap do you use that didn't pass? If you want 330's on land go to your state game commision and get it put to a vote or hearing. That is how it works state to state, are you telling me the BMP's outlawed your ability to use dry land 330's? No the ones that make those choices are the general public by using there voice and showing concern.
Without the general public being informed and looking at trapping as something benefical, you stand a much greater chance of loosing your rights in your state and so on for each state.
Conibear yes, there is a score the trap must acheive to pass the BMP criteria, they are looked at by vets and given scores for trauma and injury. Also they must be effective and pass with 60% or higher catch ratio or they are deemed impractical use. What we all want I would think as a trapper is a trap that holds a very high% of coyotes and also is kind to the foot as it all goes hand in hand. The traps I use the #3 modified and sterling mj600 both passed with high marks, so have many other traps. The ones that have been tested so far are based off the sriteria I posted up top of the page.Tom Krause has been in on these necocropsy's at the University of Wyoming to see how it is all done. It is a blind study they don't know what trap caught what animal until they are done with their findings then that information gets entered, the coyotes only have a random numbered ear tag and states which foot the coyote was caught by, thats all the vet's know until after all information is compiled for the traps being tested.
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Post by bblwi2 on Dec 14, 2005 11:48:29 GMT -6
Steve the guys I refer to are not holier than tho people. They also are not interested being part of standards that are restrictive of others. They do what they feel is the way they prefer to trap. The 300 traps and 3 day check was not a slam on that system it was stating that they don't have that high of a volume. The 300 on 3 days for some may be the correct BMP. Here is an example of what one i know does. He is about a 40 coon, 30 rat 20 fox and a few yotes and mink trapper. 1. all cages have .25 inch mesh up to about 6 inches all the way around to prevent reaching out etc. (old mink nest box false bottoms cut and fitted to be exact) 2. Almost all coons are around buildings. So dry land coons are the 1 dble coil double jaw type traps. 3. Fox are in 1.5 softies and the few yotes are held in those too. 4. Almost all mink and rats are 110s and 160s so very few live animals in footholds on the water. 5.Water line coons are the same 1 dble coil, dble jaw.
I am not saying this is the best or most efficient system. He uses this mainly due to the fact that most of his limited trapping is done very near and close to dwellings and people see his animals quite frequently. With little to no visible injury people do not comment negatively at all about his trapping and or methods. He would be the last person to tell me not to run the 1.5 Dukes or Victors on my coon water or dry land line but he does what works for him and I have learned from him and respect his reasoning. If his coons were evaluated next to yours Steve by the BMP protocol I would only be guessing how different the scores would be. I do know that his cage traps show much improvement and he does have less chewing by using the much smaller traps. Misses and sprung traps I have not discussed that with him at length. I put a dozen Duke 1 dble jaws dble coils on drags this year and did not use them with my short season so will wait till next year to see how they work.
Bryce
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Post by akona20 on Dec 14, 2005 14:03:36 GMT -6
I have followed the BMP process with keen interest for some time as I have a general interest in BMP's across more than the trapping side of things. My interest is more in the international trade ramifications and various demands internationaly for such things as BMP's.
I would dearly love to enter the debate but I was told some months ago in a public forum that I knew absolutely nothing about BMP's that were applied to anything let alone trapping and anything I added would be laughed at. Now the person who told me that holds some high recognition in the NTA so I will refrain from commenting but I still enjoy watching the debate rage here and various other places including various parliaments in Europe and back room political campaigners.
It's all good for a laugh.
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