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BMPs
Jan 25, 2004 12:51:05 GMT -6
Post by Dusty on Jan 25, 2004 12:51:05 GMT -6
OK, how about some comments? Looks like most of you think there is some value to BMPs - and remember, they are being run (at least partially - can someone else comment on this?) on your nickel, so you should have some input.
How are they going to help politically? Can't the other side say, "See, 90% of the traps used are cruel and evil, and all these trappers have done is recommend others!"
How about technically? Will you switch traps if your favorite isn't recommended? Modify to meet recommendations?
Why do those of you who think this experiment is likely to backfire think so? (You might have got my feelings on this in the above paragraphs.)
What about those of you who see no value in BMPs? Why not?
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BMPs
Jan 29, 2004 18:03:23 GMT -6
Post by Dusty on Jan 29, 2004 18:03:23 GMT -6
go top now
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BMPs
Jan 29, 2004 19:11:03 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Jan 29, 2004 19:11:03 GMT -6
OK- my personal opinon.
I can see no fault in the Eastern Coyote BMPS. Some people pointed to the fact that the 1.5 soft catch was tested- but those people, pardon my French- are ignorant in that they don't understand the process- and don't see the value in the conculsions that larger traps properly modifeid are comparable to the 1.5 softcatch in damage scores- with much higher efficientcy scores.
Sorry- but if I was going to write an up to date recommendation of traps and techniques- I couldn't do much better than the released report.
...............................................................................
The coyote BMPs are going to look like a walk in the park once the coon BMPs come out. One can only hope thst those compilying the data knows that CHEWING IS AN INHERENT TRAIT OF COON- and NO conventional foothold trap is going to eliminate or even substantially reduce this trait.
Not a double jaw, not a #11. Coon chew. THats a fact. More reduction in this trait can be accomplished- MORE CONSISTENTLY- By SETTING TECHNIQUES AND SETTING LOCATIONS than the size of the trap.
Any non recommendation of the standard 1.5 will cause the coom BMPs to gain instant disincredibility.
And thats a scenerio I don't look forward to...
_________________________________________-
I do know that the BMPs appeal to the uniformed, intelligent voter- the fact that we are using modern science to make trapping as humane as possible plays big both to Mr and Mrs America- and to the lawmakers. The day before Paul Wellstone dies- I recieved a letter from him indicating support of trapping under the guise of modern BMPs.
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BMPs
Jan 29, 2004 20:03:43 GMT -6
Post by dj88ryr on Jan 29, 2004 20:03:43 GMT -6
I must admit Dusty, I am one who said they are a good idea but will back fire, that may be some of my earlier reservations about the whole process creeping back into the equation. If, as has been stated, they are only EVER going to be reccomendations and not laws, I see the benefit to them. Steve is right about the appeal to the uninformed, I have even found myself using the arguement and the fact that they are taking place to sway some fence sitters and also to gain permission from a landowner that initially said NO. I too have reservations concerning coon, I believe that this BMP is going to be a nightmare for us as trappers, and I believe this is where the whole process may make a turn in scope to include setting procedures, check schedules, and eventually seeing the foothold taken from us for coon trapping. I believe the folks involved are also watching Canadian testing procedures. As Stef has said, they are even discounting traps that break the critters teeth when that damage is self inflicted by the critter. On the surface I believe they are a good thing and can be a useful tool for us in the future, IF and this is where we all need to stay focused, trappers continue to monitor every minute detail of the process, and never let the process become bigger or more credible than our collective knowledge of what IS right.
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BMPs
Feb 3, 2004 20:42:08 GMT -6
Post by coyote on Feb 3, 2004 20:42:08 GMT -6
I've not been trapping long enough to completely understand the big picture, but if the raccoon data show no go on the 1.5 coils, we COULD (although expensively!) gear up with Griz Getrz for raccoons. MY concern is the effect on fox trapping in areas where there's a lot of raccoon...will the 1.5 be nixed for FOX, because of coon incidentals?
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BMPs
Feb 19, 2004 14:28:20 GMT -6
Post by CoonDuke on Feb 19, 2004 14:28:20 GMT -6
coyote, If the foothold is nixed for fox...fox trapping would be no more in some areas.
We can't use conis or snares on land here in PA so it would be impossible to catch fox!!
Oh, I forgot...the Beslile foot snare...WOOOHOOOO!!
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BMPs
Feb 19, 2004 14:32:24 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Feb 19, 2004 14:32:24 GMT -6
Worse case scenerio: I think that the 1.5 will ALWAYS be an approved fox trap and an approved mink/rat trap. Then, just like Canada, if you catch a coon in a fox or mink set- well, you have a coon to skin. I cannot wait for the coon BMPs. I have heard rumours of "Not good"- but that was from trappers that are ani BMPs- so that might be a factor. I do now I don't expect good news.
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BMPs
Feb 20, 2004 8:52:51 GMT -6
Post by gcs on Feb 20, 2004 8:52:51 GMT -6
Frankly, I have no problem with the process,and would be willing to adapt if need be,but I don't think it's going to make us look better to most people. The people who hate us the most will still try to outlaw all trapping as a cruel and barbaric practice. Just watch Animal channel for awhile and see how these folks equate animals to humans, or better then humans.
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BMPs
Feb 20, 2004 14:08:12 GMT -6
Post by Iowa Badger on Feb 20, 2004 14:08:12 GMT -6
I think it can be used for good political leverage, but I liken the whole idea as to putting alcohol on the injection site before executing someone.....Know what I mean?
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BMPs
Jul 20, 2004 22:11:24 GMT -6
Post by DaveLyons on Jul 20, 2004 22:11:24 GMT -6
Steve I hope you don't mind me bring this up a little.
Guys my experience with the BMP's has been great. But my experience has only been in the public eye. I was in no way involved in any testing.
I do many large outdoor shows and sportsmen events for Michigan Trappers as District director.
The area I live in very commerial. Large manufactoring plants and such places like that. When you speak about ISO standards to these people they understand what it is to be at an ISO standard. I have been able to talk with people that at first wouldn't give me the time of day. But once they heard ISO standard. They were listening.
So I know must dislike this BMP testing. But I have for one been able to get people to listen when I start talking about the standard.
This is just my experience
Dave Lyons
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BMPs
Jul 22, 2004 21:18:28 GMT -6
Post by Edge on Jul 22, 2004 21:18:28 GMT -6
If there is a death to mainstream trapping,it will be due to BMP's. Anyone buying into the PC aspect of the BMP's better take a good hard look at them;as they are less PC and more HSUS/PETA.
The unfortunate thing is that trappers with some experience ,knowledge,and reputation actually participated;which,in turn,gives the BMP some merit. Had they stayed out of it,any information noted would have been of no value to use against ourselves.
For someone that makes their living,or a goodly portion of it from trapping;re-tooling takes time and money,that could be put to better use elsewhere.
As far as what is lost,to some it is no big deal to lose trapping or have to replace their 2 doz traps;they will go back to their Joe job and take up quail hunting. For others,it is a huge financial commitment and an unnecessary one.
And,re;the what trap is best aspect of the BMP's,if you cant figure that out on your own,you should take up knitting.
Edge
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BMPs
Jul 22, 2004 21:36:52 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Jul 22, 2004 21:36:52 GMT -6
I am back in forth on this issue.
I wish we never would have gotten involved with them- but as Wiley says- that train done left the station.
Heres the good thing- the BMPs on Eastern Coyotes- is righht o nthe money- it shows what trappers have know for years- and now we have scientific "fact" that what we have been promoting concerning land traps for cooytes- is correct. We ARE using anmane (humane) methods and euipment.
This is good.
Dave is right- this type of stuff impresses the heck out of the average person on the street. Science...sells.
Even such a liberal as Paul Wellstone expressed interest in the BMP process when I brought it to his attention.
But....but...
the downside..coon BMPs... and thats where the great schism comes.....
And thats bad....
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BMPs
Jul 22, 2004 21:42:31 GMT -6
Post by Edge on Jul 22, 2004 21:42:31 GMT -6
"Dave is right- this type of stuff impresses the heck out of the average person on the street. Science...sells."
If someone is too stupid to understand the necessity,usefulness,and practicality of trapping ,on its own merits,"science"will not convince them for long,just until they spot the next shiny pebble.
Edge
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BMPs
Jul 23, 2004 6:01:12 GMT -6
Post by Edge on Jul 23, 2004 6:01:12 GMT -6
Dave,you need to read my post;slowly.
You have paraphrased and misinterpreted what I typed.
What I say,in the above post is fact,is science,is indisputable.
I re-read your post again to be sure;you need yto re-read what I typed.
"If someone is too stupid to understand the necessity,usefulness,and practicality of trapping ,on its own merits,"science"will not convince them for long,just until they spot the next shiny pebble."
Clear as a bell.
And Yes,I am from the UP,and believe me,if you think there are no bunny hugging,left wing,tree lickers up here to deal with,you gotta get out more.Heres a clue;this is where they squat,and then they spread the news of the new promised land to all their friends. The difference is;I dont explain trapping to them,they can deal with it,or not,their choice.I do not need to justify what I do and I wont,because as soon as you do;you are a wet nurse for life;explaining away why you need to do whats *been* done for hundreds of years.
Edge
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BMPs
Jul 25, 2004 21:54:39 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 25, 2004 21:54:39 GMT -6
The BMP studies will help trappers period. The biggest thing we as trappers are up against is the uniformed public, they make up the largest % of the population, there in the middle ready to be informed or pursuaded to one side or the other. We must reach them with scientific facts! Let the other side pull with heart strings and nothing factually founded, the majority will see the truth. That is a big point behind the BMP, that it is being conducted with all walks of life trappers,vets, and researchers, all working together. What we take as common thought of a trapper, the majority knows nothing about trapping, and through science and education we will prevail, we as trappers know the many benefits and strides made with equipment in the last 15 years or so, we must get the word out on these improvements, and have more than the word of a "trapper" to back it up! The BMP studies do that. Retooling is a small price to pay for the right to keep trapping and using more than the padded trap, and I guess alot of us has seen the writing on the wall long enough to either have the retooling part done or start with good equipment that makes sense, not to us but to the general public the ones we need on our side to win! Like it or not public perception of what we do and how we do it plays into the "big picture" in a big way. Education is the key and we can just use trappers to get that message out, we need people that are well spoken and have factual information to back up what we have known for along time, without that we will always be seen as a small minority with a slanted view, and we could loose the battle. Some states my adopt BPM's down the road as there laws and regs while others won't, remember states have the right to mange wildlife, it is up to each state to define there laws, and the more informed people are of each state, and the more factual information they have the better off we will be. The BMP gives us credentials, through scientific research we wouldn't have without such studies being done.
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BMPs
Jul 25, 2004 22:58:21 GMT -6
Post by Edge on Jul 25, 2004 22:58:21 GMT -6
If someone is too stupid to understand the necessity,usefulness,and practicality of trapping ,on its own merits,"science"will not convince them for long,just until they spot the next shiny pebble.
Trapping *IS* its own science.
If you think that any of those soccer moms are gonna get on the trapping bandwagon;you are in for a shock.
And as far as the BMP explanations go,you may use them to your hearts content;quote them chapter and verse and i hope it gets you a million acres;but once you start the wet nurse process;it will not end.
You may be the type of person that likes to be told how and why and where to use what traps;me,I'll do ok without wasting the time and money on the studies.
Common sense Knowledge/respect for the target animal Good work ethic.
None of which are BMP driven.
Edge
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BMPs
Jul 25, 2004 23:24:20 GMT -6
Post by DaveLyons on Jul 25, 2004 23:24:20 GMT -6
Edge,
Now please don't ake this wrong. But you need to spend a few days in big sportshows and place of this kind.
I spend a lot of my weekends in these kind of show in the late winter. You would be amazed at what can transpire.
I also do a BIG outdoor show were it is free to the kids. I talk with about 1,000-1,500 people alone that day. There is usually about 3-4,000 throug the gate. This is were the so called soccer moms are at with there kids.
All I am say Edge is if all you do is spend time with trapper YES!!!!!! we already now the inportance of trapping. But just for instance I will be doing a BIG Bat job this week. Guess what these people had no clue who to call. But you guess it they called a trapper. But only after they were educated did they know.
Education goes a long ways my friend
Dave
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BMPs
Jul 26, 2004 20:54:39 GMT -6
Post by Edge on Jul 26, 2004 20:54:39 GMT -6
While I appreciate the condescention and suggestions as to how I should spend my time;I have been in the game 32 YEARS,dave,aint nothin new.New to you,maybe.
As far as education goes Dave,howsabout 60 scouts and their families,twice a year,by demand.Guess what,no BMP.
How about the 4H classes in the summer and early fall;with the basic equipment PROVIDE,by me,at graduation.Again,no BMP's.
How about the snaring demos for a 60-70 whitetails gruops;who have been MORE than receptive to the CONTINUANCE of snaring....yep,no BMP's.
That brings us to the smallest group;the women in the outdoors program and FFa;think there might be a soccer mom or two there Dave?And in case it hasnt been pointed out recently or cleary enough,no BMP's.
If you want to pontificate over the BMP bible ;it is your right and opinion;but dont try to mow *MY* backyard fella,aint gonna happen on this planet.
So you are capable if being at a booth at a show,where disinterested people wander by.Great.
I,however,chose to get off my a$$ and DO something,face to face,hands on,and will continue to do so until I am too old to walk.
If you need the BMP's to do your bidding,I wish you the best,I will continue to use my knowledge,experience and ambition to promote trapping;you use what works for you.
Edge
Now,Trappincoyotes;read my post,change your quotes and we'll talk.
I will NOT moderate this thread..........so feel free not to use that as an excuse.Again tho,you cant sell me the BMP,and I cant sway you.SO,lets start from there and move forward.
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BMPs
Jul 26, 2004 21:04:53 GMT -6
Post by Edge on Jul 26, 2004 21:04:53 GMT -6
I modified my post because there was a phrase in there that sounded snotty.I was going for respecfully PO'd....
It in no way changed the overall message.
Edge
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BMPs
Jul 26, 2004 21:12:29 GMT -6
Post by Edge on Jul 26, 2004 21:12:29 GMT -6
"trappincoyotes35 Skinner...
member is offline
sterling mj600= a pile of coyotes
Gender: Posts: 76 Re: BMPs « Reply #18 on: Today at 3:17pm » <br> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Like it or not Edge, we need people like "Sam Trusso" she is a brite person, and well spoken and her part plays big into helping trappers keep there right to trap. You can have any thought on the BMP's you want but, with your words your not going to sway people over to the side of pro trapping, you say you don't want to have to spend$$$ retooling and that trapping is it's own science to a degree yes, but the other alternative is you won't have to worry about retooling you will be forced to the padded foothold or worse no trap at all, except maybe a cage trap. If we stay the statis quo we will loose, plain and simple we took the hard line and tried to hammer it out by telling people we know more than you so just stay out of our way and let us a go about what we know best, look what that did for states like Washington,Colorado,Mass,California WE need to infom without belittling others, once you give information it must be correct first of all, and the second most important thing is do it with a little empathy, that word goes along ways in winning any battle or arguement. Without it like it or not you end up with both sides PO'd and nothing accomplished.
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