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BMPs
Jul 26, 2004 21:14:55 GMT -6
Post by Edge on Jul 26, 2004 21:14:55 GMT -6
trappincoyotes35....the above is your post,unedited,I dont know what happened to the original so I back cursored and reposted it.
??
Edge
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BMPs
Jul 26, 2004 21:22:52 GMT -6
Post by dj88ryr on Jul 26, 2004 21:22:52 GMT -6
You guys that are in favor of BMPs might want to hold your tongue till we get some more of the critters done. The coyote BMP came out as something we can live with, but in my opinion, that study was done that way to buy a percentage of the trapping community into their fold. Once they have us divided, then then will shove ever more restrictive BMPS down our throat while saying that " trappers " are in favor, just be careful what you praise till you see the final package, BTW, the coon BMP is going to piss more people off than it will encourage.
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BMPs
Jul 26, 2004 21:43:28 GMT -6
Post by Edge on Jul 26, 2004 21:43:28 GMT -6
"with your words your not going to sway people over to the side of pro trapping,"
Been doin it my whole career,Pard,I trap *for*many former tree huggers,got an HSUS supporter to make a sizeable donation to the NTA;as PAYMENT for a coon removal job;how bout you?
"you say you don't want to have to spend$$$ retooling "
No,I didnt,I said it could be better spent elsewhere.
"look what that did for states like Washington,Colorado,Mass,California"
I can only hope that you are not implying that the BMPs could have saved trapping in those states,right?
"WE need to infom without belittling others, once you give information it must be correct first of all, and the second most important thing is do it with a little empathy, that word goes along ways in winning any battle or arguement. Without it like it or not you end up with both sides PO'd and nothing accomplished. "
Right you are,Pard,my students run from old enough to walk to too dang old to try,all leave happy,educated,and waiting on season.A remarkably high percentage of them trap the first season following;and many continue beyond that,I dont believe as high a percentage is attained at captive shows;no fault of the "show" mind you,but my students show up with a bent to learn;not because my place is close to the corn dog stand.
Edge
Again,you aint gonna sway me on the BMP's,so lets hear more of what you think and less of what you think you know about me.
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BMPs
Jul 26, 2004 21:45:57 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 26, 2004 21:45:57 GMT -6
Edge the BMP was not set up to give educated trappers and idea of what trap is best, it is set up as a guide line for new trappers and the uninformed public to show the strides being made in trapping, proving it isn't the 1800's type traps in use! We had trappers involved and researchers from both sides involved for a reason to keep the outcome as balanced as can be. If you can't look at the coyote BMP and find a trap that isn't in use by 90% of the coyote trappers outthere I would be surprised, but it isn't for guys of 20+ years experiance it is for new to the game as a guide line, and fot the public. As far as the raccoon BMP let's wait until it is done before we comment on the doom and gloom or lack there of, we are dealing with a rare species in the aspect it is a known foot chewer, plain and simple and by being upfront about that where not pushing the facts in the closet! If we are to be taken seriously we need to be upfront and forthright. Jaw guards are a good idea on coon traps, and I bet there will be traps listed for drowning and non drowning situations on the final report. I use alot of mj600,coyote cuffs and modified #3 bridgers, cost more you bet but the PR I get is well worth the investment, a great holding trap in any of them, and one that does the job well. The bridgers and mj600 have passed BMP's and the coyote cuff #33 should pass the next time tested. How many of you would tell a new trapper to use #2 victor sq /rd jaws for coon? How about old traps with weak springs and chain for coyotes? How about telling a new trapper 1 swivel per trap is sufficant for dry land trapping? What would the end result be in all of these cases? BMP" better managment practices", is simply that us opening the closet door to the majority, and saying look this is where we are at, this is where we were 10-15 years ago, that is open and honest and the general public won't stand for anything less, without the talk of animal comfort while being restarined I can tell you we wouldn't have some of the things that have made it to the suppliers table. RE: shear away locks, Bad devices, stop shock springs, kill springs, thick wide cast jawed traps, egg trap, grtizz trap, duffers trap,the list goes on, we as trappers have alot more selective and better equipment now, than 15-20 years ago for sure, and to me thats not a bad thing by any means. The BMP's are here to stay we can argue and fight about it, or we can be pro active and embrace the positives and reduce the negatives or we can all remain split and fight tooth and nail, I will be pro-active and inform people as to the positives of the not only the BMP, but the great role trapping as a whole plays in the big picture of wildlife conservation. I too have done demo's/taught classes for schools, and other organizations, and each one who attends watches the BMP video and gets the latest material about trapping and the BMP process.
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BMPs
Jul 26, 2004 21:55:41 GMT -6
Post by Edge on Jul 26, 2004 21:55:41 GMT -6
That is one intelligent post,and thats no BS.
Now *that* kind of writing I can read.
While I undestand the good parts of the BMP's,like anyhitng ,the *un*known is what I am suspicious of.......since the 70's there have been so many trapping "saviors" that have turned around and screwed the trapper;it is only wise to be gunshy.
While not "sold"I am beginning to see at least where "other" people are seeing value,at whatever level,in the BMP's.
What strikes me as odd tho,is that there ARE uninformed trappers out there........with the cyber age,there is a ton of info out there;some of which may be wrong,yes,but it is the motherlode compared to learning 30 yrs ago.
Edge
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BMPs
Jul 26, 2004 21:58:04 GMT -6
Post by dj88ryr on Jul 26, 2004 21:58:04 GMT -6
Respectfully 35, if all we need to do is educate new trappers and the general public, we could do that without testing that is being worded so that it can become law down the road in some states. If it isn't done 100% by trappers and wildlife biologist that also trap, it is going to be a stake that will be sharpened to drive right through our hearts. I have seen this appeasment game played so many times in my life, and the appeasers always, I say, ALWAYS get boned. They are BAD science at best, and the begining of the end at worst.
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BMPs
Jul 27, 2004 16:41:02 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 27, 2004 16:41:02 GMT -6
DJ88, if all where needing to do is educate trappers and the general public, we could do that without testing? I disagree, without testing your back to what we had! We have scientific proof that x,y and z traps used for species A, will have an average injury result of C. This is what we need to back up our findings, we need it done in a controlled manner,without a bias and with a set of guidelines to test under, without it, we would be wasting our breath, with average american. If it was easy to say hay look joe american, I'm a trapper, and this is what I use and this is what I feel is a good coyote trap, and then go through all the trapper jargin, then peta shows him trumped up photos of poor animal a in a trap, what do you think his outlook on trapping will be? With the Bmp we can show factually what to expect, from said trap, we have the data to show the injury and what % is considered minor by some of the top vets and researchers in the study, CLOUT this will have much more of it! We can't outspend animal rights groups, we just can't, but we can give factual information and show factual results of trapping as a whole, the people want the truth to make an informed decision, backed by reasearch and data, we can now provide this with the BMP. Peta and the others have alomost zero% factual information on there side, why? Because there role can't be backed up with sound data or truthful information, there role is based almost 100% emotion to keep the coffers full, we are backed up with experts in the fields trappers,wildlife biologist, vets, and necocropys being done on each animal caught! That is done from both sides without a big bias swing, from either side, that is important. As far as these findings being turned into law, yes it could happen and it may happen in some states, but guess what? All states have the right to modify game regs, at anytime! You can't blame reg changes on the BMP, as the BMP may save some trappers the right to trap because of them! Take a state that has an anti trapping bill come up in session, would you rather go there and give your testimony as a trapper and why these traps should continue to be used, and have a group of people not connected to the outdoor way of life judge you on testimony only? Or would you like trappers to do there part and then have the ability to pull out data and facts from a bi partisan commitee, of experts in there field as too why there findings show through out the country why these traps are not only needed for certain species, but also the abilty to show just how little damage they factually do to said species? GIve me option B every time in a hearing like this!
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BMPs
Jul 27, 2004 16:56:23 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Jul 27, 2004 16:56:23 GMT -6
I got a sore butt from sitting on the fence on the BMPs.
As you say- the coyote ones are very good- If I was writing them, would be very similar. Althoug I do have a hard time coming to conclusions basid on in some instances 30 or so catchs. Law of averages says 30 in a row may or may not be the correct pattern.
But- heres what I gather is the truth on the BMPs concerning coon- not 1 foothold trap passed. And this is in part- because it WAS not recognised about the coons pattern of chewing BEFORE the standards were set. There is no reasonable reason to have the injury and threahold score identical in both cooytes and coon.
That, more than anything- caused conventional traps- including the much touted #11 dj- to fail.
Only coon specific traps, in my understanding, passed.
Now- I agree 100% that just the CONCEPT of BMPS influences people. I have seen it.
But that doesn't mean we have to rubberstamp results.
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BMPs
Jul 27, 2004 18:45:38 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 27, 2004 18:45:38 GMT -6
You must remain constant on a base line for injury scores and holding ability, reguardless of the species in question, or you are bias to the concept. If we raise the rate of injury allowed, because of it being a raccoon just to make it so trap x,y, and z passes then are we really doing anything? Sure some will throw there hands to the air and say thats it no more coon trapping! Not so, no one has made the bmp law in there state, and no one is stating if you catch a coon in a rat set, mink, set, fox set, beaver set, or coyote set, that you are breaking the law, it would be real hard to pass just certain traps, as regs, way too many variables and way too hard to prove in a court of law! If a coon was caught in a type B instead of type C trap! I will tell you there will be people working on a foothold, that can/will pass the BMP for coon, may take some thinking and fabrication but it can and will be done, also let's wait and see the results of the actual report, before we go jumping on the wagon with the BMP coon data. There is a reason the species type traps are made, because someone wanted to build a better coon trap, again no one is telling you, get rid of your 1.5 coils or 11 dj, and for states that allow snaring, that was my main coon getter when I went after them hard. I'm sure they will pass any BMP and so will the conibears. The main thing to remember is credabilty in the testing and that NO One is forceing anything on anyone at this point or in the short forseeable future. I also think with raccoons, there ability to repopulate at large rates in a hurry helps, and the problems major cities could run into with too much trap regulation. The coyote BMP turned out well and yes the traps tested and used where what falls inline with what coyote trappers, of recent years have been using, the reason being? They were willing to accept knowledge from people telling them, laminated jaws, offset jaws, good swivling, and also the coyote foot being a tougher design, than that of other species, some may use overpowered 4 coiled traps for fox, but if they don't pass the BMP is that the fault of testing or using the wrong equipment? Common sense and years of experiance tells most trappers not a good choice, but I bet they will be tested to prove the point anyhow. The sky last time I looked isn't falling in fact, as far as trappers go it may hang in there quite awhile longer. You guys keep up the debate wrong/or right on BMP. Good luck TC35
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BMPs
Aug 16, 2004 1:03:23 GMT -6
Post by Coyote556 on Aug 16, 2004 1:03:23 GMT -6
The guy at the BMP booth, at the NTA convention said the #11 double jaw passed for coon, but just barely. He said the Griz was one of the best, with something like a 97% success rate. (The way I took it, success ment no animal damage) I have not seen the acutal report. This is "word of mouth" information at this point, however it is from the BMP guy at their booth.
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BMPs
Aug 16, 2004 8:01:00 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Aug 16, 2004 8:01:00 GMT -6
If the #11 passed for coon, and the standard #1.5 coil did not- it throws the validity of the entire coon bmps out the window.
Anyone that has actually trapped more than a few coon in either trap knows, that setting them identically- the FREAKING CHEWING RATE IS THE SAME.
To say differently is a distortion, delibrate or otherwise.
During my otter trapping, we used nothig BUT #11. 24 inch chain 7 swiveling points, jc shock spring, set in all non entanglement situations.
Coon were the #1 incidental- by far- and IN CHECKING THOSE TRAPS ON A DAILY BASIS FOR MORE THAN 17 weeks over 3 years, in spring, summer and fall- in over 4200 trap nights- THE CHEWING RATES WERE no more nor no less than what occurs oin my canine/coon lines.
Now- I support the coyote bmps- it is correct info based on my knowledge and the knowledge of my coyote trapping peers.
An easy document to support.
But coon- yes, I know they aren't out yet- but bits and pieces have surfaced- and they range fro mthis report that only the #11 passed- and I have heard previously, here on this forum in fact- that NO foothold trap passed.
Stupidity to have the same value scores for canine and coon.
If the above is true- that no footholds passed or worse yet that the #11 "passed"- I shall vocally oppose the coon bmps in any way, shape or manner I can.
And heaven forbid that some idiots don't keep pushing for snare bmps- cause you think coon have been a nightmare- wait until then!
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BMPs
Aug 16, 2004 11:05:49 GMT -6
Post by Rob220swift on Aug 16, 2004 11:05:49 GMT -6
Edge has hit the nail on the head, with the back of an axe. No amount of "science" will convince a dyed in the wool anti. Plain talk will straighten out the misinformed who are easy to ID after a few minutes of BS'n. We have 'em here in good old Irontown. No gas motors on Teal Lake, cause it will damage the pristine nature of the water. One of these "huggers" I personally know doesn't think twice about raking their dog's crap down into the water when the do the yard. Hypocrites abound, even in da UP.
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BMPs
Aug 17, 2004 15:31:26 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 17, 2004 15:31:26 GMT -6
The point being T'man, you can't change the injury score! The whole study will have no validity!!! You want the BMP to reflect what "you" think is a great coon trap! Re read what I wrote, the concept of the coon cuff and grizz to have traps that are a great coon trap! Again no one is telling you what to use!!! The study will show what trap had what injury score period! To slant the study and say we can allow X species more amount of damage just so the trap of your choice passes, is not what the test where set up for in the first place! Lets wait until the actual report comes out and says before we start injecting rumors and hear say! You state you can get along with the BMP for coyotes because it is inline with your and your "peers" line of thought, great but they tested many traps some passed and some failed, that is testing! Some will go back to the drawing board and try to have there trap tested again, case in point the coyote cuff#33 will be tested again at some point with a minor offset modifacation, I still use them, and no one has told me not to. I use them because they hold coyote really well, reguardless of the study! Think about the strides made in coyote traps in the last 15 years or so? They have come along ways! Can we say the same about coon traps? Until the last 5-10 years, we had no new species specific coon traps, men have come up with them more to be cat and dog proof, to make a better trap and to give a trapper more choices! You see them as a negative and not a positive. You miss the fact that no one is enforcing anything on anyone! It may happen and may not! The BMP is hear to stay as I stated you can complain and moan about them, or try and be positive and have input to make them something we can all live with, your choice. I use to be the same way, oh' BMP's are going to end trapping as we know it! Then I talked with Sam Trusso and I seen the positives far out weigh a few minor negatives. The IAFWA is on ourside! They put on many trapping matters clinics and inform the genral public of the great benefits of trapping. As far as a coon BMP with snares, the key is the right lock, cable, and have good entanglement , with the emphasis on neck snared coon, not hip or body snared coon! In my mind if your hip snaring or body snaring a large % of coons then your not using the tool for it's designed purpose. Rob 220, again the BMP isn't to impress or impose anything on the anti's, there never going to change there tune! It is and was created to sway the people in the middle, the undecided, to see factual accountabilty of trappers! I can remember many years ago as states started to enact mandatory hunter safety all the negatives, from a group of hunters, and how this was just another loop whole to end hunting! It was put in place: better safety to our children and how to respect landowners and the wild game, and most it gave hunting alot of credabilty with the undecided who make up the largest portion of the population! Be it hunting or trapping! If you want to boycott the coon BMP if not to your standards, but it will be what it will be. I choose to have input and discuss how to make things better, and move forward in a positive direction, than to stay in the past or be stagnant. For years our trappers assc where that way, keep on with the statis quo, but more are seeing the light and know we need to be proactive, in our approach to save trapping! We must be factually hitting the middle and pushing our agenda with facts, the day we deiced to say all forget it, it isn't worth it, then the anti movement will have won!
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BMPs
Aug 17, 2004 16:17:08 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Aug 17, 2004 16:17:08 GMT -6
Tell you what- you give me sceintific information- as to why the injury scores should be the same for coyotes as coon as muskrats.
ESP when these scores were recommend to be different, but was convinced to lower them to the 55 threshold.
The whole flaw in the coon bmps is COON CHEW NUMB FEET- and that was never recgonized.
Methods were never really recognised-
All the coon bmps wil ldo is make a lot of coon trapper mink and fox trappers- with the implied concent of the bmp committees- the famous "suite" consideration.
I have very serious reservations on the numbers and yes, the protocal of the coon bmps.
See- I actually trap coon for 5 months a year- I know what coon do and don't do.
I'll continue to criticise what needs criticising.
any coon bmp that allows no trap to pass is bogus.
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BMPs
Aug 17, 2004 17:42:48 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 17, 2004 17:42:48 GMT -6
Let no trap pass? I guess the word "trap" would need to be defined then. I have trapped many coon in the corn belt of coons Iowa, growing up there and trapping the coon was the money cow of most trappers in the state of Iowa. Yes coons do chew, but those that wanted to redefine the injury scores, wanted the same thing as others so certain traps could/would pass the test. I think there will be an * or disclamier next to this report stating the fact about the coon and the chewing, and I will say again there will be a "trap" other than the species specific types that "will" pass the BMP, why? because if worse case happens there will be a need for one down the road, if your a nay sayer and think because of this report coon trapping with a foot hold will go by the way side. I will call the egg trap, duffers and grizz a foothold by the way as well. Just very species specific. The BMP testing is an ongoing work in progress it won't close the door on coon trapping!
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BMPs
Aug 17, 2004 17:48:35 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Aug 17, 2004 17:48:35 GMT -6
Lets call them pan traps then...no, lets call them multispecies traps.
The coon specific traps are nice for specific locations- but are not a fur trappers trap. I WANT my incidentals- whther they be mink or fox- I need a trap that can take all.
I don't think you really understand how the threshold scores came about. It wasn't like they were developed by any scientific fact or baisis- they were as arbitrary as it comes.
A bmp with a disclaimer? I doubt it.
And our future hangs on that?
Lets hope we don't go the way of Canada where no coon can be trapped in a PAN trap.
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BMPs
Aug 17, 2004 22:17:21 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 17, 2004 22:17:21 GMT -6
The species specifics are not a fur trappers trap? I would argue ask the guy that used the grizz to make a great catch of coons with that trap! I will state again your not going to be penalized for catching a coon in a 1.5 coil, make a set for a mink and catch the coon, no one could/would right you up for this! Read the BMP credo, practicality is involved. The BMP is a suggestion not law! Tell me one state that said as each BMP is done that will be the way they make there trapping laws, has anyone made the coyote BMP the last word for coyote trapping? The BMP threshold scores are not based on science? It is a base line that was created, some wanted a tougher line others a softer, it is what it is! Our future as trappers hangs on not the BMP, but being united and strong, not divided on what we may think might or might not happen. I will state one last time, each state makes there game laws, each state has the right to change them at anytime with a vote, BMP or not that is the bottom line. It is up to the Trapper orgs and others to let your/our game commisions know our thoughts and ideals, and the BMP will help in states that have more anti activity to let the majority of undecided voters, see the truth. That is the bottom line with the BMP. We can't stop some anti trapping bills from comming to the table but we sure can give the voters facts and data to prove ourselves as people who care and are working on tools of the trade. I would bet years ago as each state under fire disallowed the use of tooth jawed traps, there was the cry that trapping as we know it is gone! We continue the pursuit today, with minor modifcations: ie no tooth jawed traps. Canada is not the US, they have different laws, and a different dynamic, we can't use Ram snares but they can, does that make one better than the other or worse off? No different tools for different dynamics. I would say Canada has strictor guidlines than the US. This post is like beating a dead horse we all have thoughts on this issue they very but let us not loose the common cause to preserve trapping!
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BMPs
Aug 18, 2004 11:16:28 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Aug 18, 2004 11:16:28 GMT -6
will state again your not going to be penalized for catching a coon in a 1.5 coil,
this is hypocresy at its worse...we aren't going to approve any coon pan traps- but we will turn a blind eye if you use them to trap coon?
sorry- out front and honest.
And- I do believe that within 10 years- states will implement portions of the bmps as laws. To think differently is not being realisatic.
Hey- I suport bmps...but not blindly.
Show me please, the rationalization for the "sceintific" threshold levels. don't bother- cause there was none- it was ALL subjective.
Regarding the little griz- its a nice trap- and it is invaluiable in its intended design. I was one of first to use them and wrote a review on them for Fur Takers sevral years ago. They work swell. I had one weighed 34 lb coon in one- Gary has that pciture in his display.
But- it is not and was never intended to be an all around fur trappers trap. Every coon trapper I know wants those rats and mink in the water, wants those fox, cooytes, skunks, etc on land. On a fur line- the incidentals pay the bills-
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BMPs
Aug 18, 2004 16:21:29 GMT -6
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 18, 2004 16:21:29 GMT -6
Trapperman, you act like the BMP is law! It is not law and if we all read our states regs I doubt yours has changed yet because of any BMP done past ,present, or in the near future." Near" being the next 10 years! Do you honestly think that in the next 2-5 years that someone won't come up with a pan jawed trap that will pass the BMP? and don't forget the report is not out yet! I'm not being dishonest or shady, the Fact of the matter is how could you enforce a law such as 1.5 coils legal for mink but not raccoon, and are you really going to be able to tell the foot mark of a 1.5 verus an 11 DJ ? Some day maybe but I doubt it. These test give us factual injury data, and suggestions to better equipment, but there is no Law Enforced yet. This will be a state by state thing just as it is now! In Ohio you can't use a #3 size foothold on land, other states you can, that was enacted long before the BMP, trappers get by and make due and catch coyotes, who are we to blame in Ohio? Are the Ohio trappers for the most part kickin and screaming about we have no good coyote trap? No there out there catching coyotes. Just remember state by state T'man, that is the way it has been and will be, because if the Feds get involved it also means additional funding to these states. My last post on this moving on to better things!
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BMPs
Aug 18, 2004 18:47:42 GMT -6
Post by trappnman on Aug 18, 2004 18:47:42 GMT -6
Hey- don't get upset- in general, as i told you I support the concept of the bmps. You seem to be taking this personel- don't.
I fully understand that the bmps are recommendations- and I also fully realize that it will be up to the individual states whether to use them as suggestions, to enact laws around them or toss them in the garbage. A lot is going to depend on the makeup of indiducal states wildlife departments and lawmakers.
But to think it won't become recommended then law in at least a few states is being unrealistic. Nothing against you or the bmps- thats just a wide open look at reality.
You are missing the point- the inherent nature of coon to CHEW should have been the #1 focus- and reality should have taken hold. Injury scores on NUMB feet cannot be compared to cuts, etc on coyotes. Too different animals- it needed 2 different thresholds.
and to say- who can tell the difference between a 1.5 and a #11 caught coon.......thats exactly my point...you cannot.....they are exactly the same.
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