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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Nov 14, 2007 17:22:40 GMT -6
I see plenty on here bashing groenwold fur, yet many years I did a better average on coons through my local grony buyer than what sold for auction in Canada! I had years where mt green coon avergaed better than put up and commision from Canada. Petska and others I could name can take advantage becuase they are the sole game in many towns, many fur trappers take a beating from the buyer that swings through po dunk, but there only option is to finish,ship and wait for there money. If you have alot may be worth your time maybe! Otherwise smaller buyers can not nor will pay more than what they do because there numbers are smaller lots and need to make more per hide basis than larger buyers. Fact of doing business. If you buy 2,500 coon you need to make more per coon than a guy buying 25,000 coons as it is a numbers game. All you grony haters take heart in the fact they lost alot of money last year with 7.00 something rats and by the time they sold the makret went due south, look for that market to take many years to pop back above 3.00!!!! Yes you have to you have good fur to see the higher end of the buyers market, low quailty doesn't matter coons,coyotes,cats etc, your not going to recieve the upper end of the buying as the margin of profit is lower on low end goods. The fur market is at a point that will be real interesting in the next 3-5 seasons, if we get to 4.00 gas and trap prices and metals keep rising we will see what is left of long liners nationwide which is down a bunch already compaired to years past and what the fur market does as a hole, as if demand is there we could see a rebound in fur prices, but will there be enough guys able to reach demand in the next 5 years? Trappers as a whole are getting long in the tooth and fur trappers and ADC will have some choices to be made in the future as the younger generation just has little interest in 12.00 coons,15.00 coyotes and traps that cost 100.00 a dozen and 3.25 gas!
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Post by garman on Nov 14, 2007 19:45:41 GMT -6
I can not speak all places groeny buys but last year one of the biggest buyers working for groeny never payed close to 7.00 for rats, as far as bad mouthing him no bad mouthing here just fact from someone who seen it first hand. They are excellent marketers, but I will say one thing and that is this they have always treated me more than great on coyotes and fox. Mink and coon they will buy fair from big suppliers, to make a name for for the rest of the local area. Once again excellent marketing!! Now with that being stated sell to whomever you want to sell to, I have gotten burnt at the auction also BUT it was a burn across the board for everyone not just picking on a group because you could if you have a good deal with Groeny by gosh sell to him and I hope it continues, I used to speak just like u, and some do not like the buyers I have went to before and felt happy with, but it was me selling just like it is you selling your fur. Good Luck
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Post by trappnman on Nov 14, 2007 20:02:06 GMT -6
I have no beef with his prices- they are what they are.
but I do have a beef with his practices- highballing, turnbing down coon (junk....leave them if you want" and cherry picking coon.
inconsistent prices, playing games.
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Post by thebeav2 on Nov 14, 2007 20:12:37 GMT -6
Wrong on the rats Groney bought last year. Several guys I know that sell to groney highgraded out all the good rats and sold to groney and took out all the damage and lower grades and sold to NAFA. Guess what they did better at NAFA then they did with groney. For every trapper that gets top dollar from groney there will be 10 that don't do so good. That's the way It works.
And If you think groney took It In the shorts on the rats he bought, guess again. I would venture a guess that groney has every piece of fur sold before he buys it and has a set price. Why do you think he spends months over seas. He sure Isn't just site seeing.
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Post by furman on Nov 15, 2007 7:57:49 GMT -6
Groney is a smart buyer. If he didn’t know what he was doing he would have been out of business years ago. He’s the largest country buyer out there.
But on the other hand I don’t sell to him.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2007 8:02:45 GMT -6
I`ve been treated like a king by groeny and done wrong by him- IMO. the key here is IMO. either way both times it`s my doing, not his. I`ll definitly deal with him again. I apppreciate a good businessman ,and one of the few choices left outside the auctions. geeze you guys could get gifted a 100 dollar bill and complain someone else got $150. I still think lots of you should buy a fur buyers lisc.
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Post by thebeav2 on Nov 15, 2007 8:23:01 GMT -6
It's like Steve said It's the way he buys. One guy will get a $14.00 average and the next guy will take It In the shorts to make up for the high averages paid the other guy. I know this for a fact since I have hauled the same fur with two different sellers. You may think this Is good business but I think It sucks. But the sad fact Is when groney hangs It up the trapper Is going to be left out In the cold with no place to sell. The problem will be green skins and carcase animals and no one to put them up.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2007 8:54:07 GMT -6
you have to admit, hauling the same fur with 2 different sellers, top grading to nafa and selling the rest to groeny, or taking his rejects and adding a few more and then running it thru again yourself, or by another ,to waste his time grading twice and maybe gain a grade - none of that is any more unethical than anything groeny does. heck, if the man is so bad, how come you go twice? why not just say no. do you all crab about the top lot grades or near tops that are ridiculous high, and then the $2 coyotes at nafa? I do. probably their grading levels are lots worse than groenys. groeny has 3-4 piles maybe. how about nafas 120 piles on just coon, size, color, damage . heck, at nafa probably there is a grade for number of whiskers on a coon.
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Post by mtcbrlatrap on Nov 15, 2007 8:56:03 GMT -6
But BEAV that will create opportunity for those willing and able to put up coons so that they can and do go to the market. With $3-$4 gas and 100-200 dollar a dozen traps we may see more that are willing to stay at home, skin, flesh and board and say make $3-$4 per coon for their efforts. Maybe not as exciting, or as fun, but man the profit margin with no ownership costs other than boards, knives, fleshers, sawdust, pins, some freezers and some heat is sky high.
Example Catch 200 coons sell in the grease for $2000 Drive 60 miles per day for 30 days Use 5 dozen sets Use 4 hours per day to run the line
Now buy the equipment, flesh and sell for $4,000 You can do 3 coon per hour so you invest 70 hours of time plus equipment, fleshing knives, boards, pins etc.
Or
Trap an extra 70 hours and catch 250 coons Drive 70 miles per day for 35 days
Sell coons for $5,000
but you hired someone to skin, flesh and board for $3.50 per coon or $875
You still make more than you did in either of the other two examples above.
To me it is not gloom and doom it is more what trips your trigger and doing what you like. The more people that sell to larger auctions the more pressure that is put on local buyers to pay higher prices to get their collections and that should be a good thing for local trappers who choose not to ship fur or want to sell locally.
Bryce
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Post by thebeav2 on Nov 15, 2007 9:28:52 GMT -6
No Bob I just did It to prove a point. It was the same fur just offered by two different trappers. No high grading or sorting just the same fur. One guy was very well known the other guy wasn't. Guess who got the better average. As to all those grades. If your handling millions of coon from all over the country and caught at all times of the year and put up by some real fur butchers then you would understand all the grades.
Bob you forgot the no value and the $1.00 and $2.00 coon piles along with the other 4 piles LOl You think NAFA wants to work out all these different grades, what advantage would It be to them? No It's the International buyer. If those buyers aren't happy then the trapper and NAFA both lose. Do you think NAFA would purposely down grade a piece of fur? They get 11% commission on each piece of fur. It wouldn't make any sense to down grade a $50.00 piece of fur down to a $10.00 piece of fur. The last time I figured It out 11% of $50.00 was more then 11% of $10.00 Has Groney ever put up any of his money to any state or National trapping organization to support trapping? Nafa does. And groney Is dead set against Trappers education, Take note of this mike.
Take note Bob You bad mouth NTA and NAFA at every chance you get. Why, because they did you wrong. That's how I feel about groney. So like you I will continue to do my thing.
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Post by thebeav2 on Nov 15, 2007 9:37:12 GMT -6
Well I disagree with you Bryce. If most trappers had to put up their fur to sell It they would hang It up. Balancing a job and a family and time In the fur shed puts alot restraints on ones time. The thing to do Is ship all your green fur to NAFA and pay them to put It up. You just have the cost of catching the fur. It's put up correctly and you should get the market value.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2007 9:46:12 GMT -6
nah beav, just nta has done me wrong, but worse yet is they have done every fur harvester in the world wrong by giving near a million to an ex hsus v.p., and throwing out trappers who exposed this mockery of therm calling themselves a "trappers assn". neither nafa or groeny has ever done that. nafas biggest negative in my mind today is they gave nta some money, who then likely gave to trappings enemys at the worst, or totally squandered it on useless crud at the best. and if you think nafa doesn`t have 25 cent and $1-2 piles then you never looked to see what "section II" is and the numbers in it or the prices. and I`ll guarantee you they aren`t all summer road kill or rotton slippers or damaged to the point of worthlessness. the fur biz is ruthless, and basically rotton to the core, always has been, always will be. just an "example" . say someone bids a certain lot up to xxxx dollars, and in return after the sale gets private treatied the same quality for 1/10th x, for his services on the xxxx bid. c`mon beav, you weren`t born yesterday. people are sneaky from top to bottom in the fur trade, always have been, always will be. no one can single out any one portion as the villain. except the nta, they need exposed bigtime.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Nov 15, 2007 9:56:28 GMT -6
I don't get the gripe about a furbuyer treating people different. It's a buyers job to get something as cheap as possible, same as it's a sellers job to to get the most he can.
That makes a market work.
Groeny isn't stealing anything, just negotiating.
Negotiation skills are some of the most valuable skills you have in any walk of life.
The seller always hold the ultimate trump card, that is to refuse the offer, he has control of the goods.
Joel
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Post by thebeav2 on Nov 15, 2007 9:57:28 GMT -6
Bob NAFA was no different than you or me we all got duped by NTA You and I stopped giving money to NTA and so did NAFA. You and I still don't give money to NTA but NAFA has gone back to giving them money. Hopefully It's not going Into someones pocket.
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Post by thebeav2 on Nov 15, 2007 10:04:40 GMT -6
Well I guess It's OK to SCREW a person as long as It's called doing BUSINESS
If your selling a house lets say and you know there are some structural problems and you don't disclose those problems and go a head and sell that house It's OK since It's just doing business.
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Post by thebeav2 on Nov 15, 2007 10:11:36 GMT -6
But when your limited to only one card then your trump card has no value.
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Post by bobwendt on Nov 15, 2007 10:27:30 GMT -6
lol, if I was you I`d just not trap, like shag. it`s obvious it`s hopeless. that`s what about 95% have done, of those that were active in the early 80s. only one reason, financial disaster.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Nov 15, 2007 10:42:03 GMT -6
Apples and Oranges. Nondisclosure of a structural defect has nothing to do with legitimate negotiation.
It's illegal here.
Should a trapper disclose a sewed up bullet hole or a green belly?
Now there is no law against offering a seller less than they are asking and no law against them taking it.
Say I have two identical houses next door to each other and I make an offer to each seller. Should I be obligated to make the same offer?
Do you suppose that trappers always tell you the truth about what Grony paid them?
If I've heard it once I've heard it a thousand times where a home seller will tell me that his neighbor got X for his house. When I look it up on the tax rolls, not even close.
Joel
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Post by thebeav2 on Nov 15, 2007 10:44:15 GMT -6
No Bob I'm like Steve I can make some money trapping coon I just won't be selling to groney. And Shag Is just trying to be a Bob Wendt look a like and he ain't going to make it LOL I just had to say It shag the devil made me do It or maybe It was groney LOL
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Post by mtcbrlatrap on Nov 15, 2007 11:01:00 GMT -6
The seller frequently does not hold the trump card, be that fur, land, houses, crops whatever. The seller typically sells items to create needed income and thus many times needs to decide to sell even if prices are below his/her expectations etc. To me buyers are in stronger positions as they can vary prices to either stimulate activity or lessen activity in a goods or service. The fact that many of us are not full time trappers and do not NEED the income from our pelts gives us more power in the market and options than those who are using fur as a very needed source of living expenses etc. Many small sellers don't review all their options or because they have lower quantities they choose to take the routes that involve the least, time, work or inputs. there are a whole host of examples that one could use to show where those who hold items for sale that need to be sold are many times at the mercy of the market or circumstances.
Ones marketing plan probably needs to reflect in many ways how one manages their harvest and or production of fur plan. If one wants all their limited time and resources in harvesting than a marketing plan should reflect their goals. If their plan involves other strategies that will add value to their product than there needs to be a plan for the time and resources to add value to the fur.
How much risk does one take by sending fur away and waiting to see if the markets rise or fall? I think many times we go overboard on this risk. How much risk do we take when we run 60-80 coon traps along a 50 mile line, while driving a vehicle? Too me that is a greater risk.
Also if I have $1500 of fur in the grease that could be worth say $2500 6 months later, what is the time value of that money if I don't need the cash today? Six months interest at 5% on 1500 is $37.50 before taxes.
Bryce
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