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Post by rionueces on Apr 9, 2006 12:30:43 GMT -6
We lose very few calves to coyotes down here. Most of the cattle are crossed with Brahma's to endure the heat, and these F1 crosses as they are called, are very protective of their calves.
The ADC work that we do in S. TX is to reduce predation on deer and quail\turkey eggs. Studies indicate that 30% to 40% of all deer are killed by coyotes on ranches with no predator control work. The racoons are hell on the quail and turkey eggs.
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Post by bobwendt on Apr 9, 2006 13:59:48 GMT -6
I think they are about the #1 cause of fawn fatality everywhere they are. in the spring the poop up here is all fawn hair, before vegetation starts being a large part of their diet.
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Post by Wiley on Apr 9, 2006 18:13:21 GMT -6
My sincere apology to Marty. I confused Mad Dog with Bad Dog. I should have known Marty was smart enough not to make such a stupid statement about my calling segment on a video I agreed to participate in for the T&PC which was a joke.
Again Marty, my sincere apology for confusing you with one of Wend't clones. I should have known better.
BW: "so, are the cattlman obligated by law to vote the 6 cents?"
They already voted on it. What are you talking about? They are obligated to pay it AFTER THEY VOTED AND AGREED TO TAX THEMSELVES. The cattlemen agreed to tax themselves $.06 per head at the county level in SD. Had they not wanted the service, they would not have taxed themselves.
Here's how it works in SD Bob (as if you will understand it). Sheep are taxed $.25 per sheep and cows are taxed $.06 per head. This isn't taxed directly to the sheep and cattlemen but rather is used as a formula to determine the amount that each county will pay in.
This county assessment is then matched $2 to $1 by the SD Dept of Game, Fish, and Parks from hunting and fishing license sales. This is the sportsman's way of giving something back to the landowner and the sportsmen realize the importance of predator control in reducing deer fawn and antelope kid losses. The sportsman had no problem supporting it. When pairs are removed on cattle and sheep operations, there is a secondary benefit to fawns and kids. Some WS programs are even doing coyote removal in specific areas just for fawn and kid survival.
After that, we get a little more than 1/3 of our budget from the Federal Government and a lot of this goes to pr. dog control.
When we are not killing coyotes or beaver, we are doing game surveys for the Department. 15% of our time has to go to wildlife related issues including Mountain Lion Control, antelope surveys, grouse surveys, deer surveys, fish spawning, pheasant surveys, elk surveys, etc..
Now you can bitch and hollar about how private trappers could provide this service for free but anyone that knows anything about predator control knows that's bullsh*t because private trappers want to trap prime fur because there is no incentive for them to spend weeks chasing individual stock killers in the spring and summer.
In total fairness, you on the other hand do provide a service to some game birds and possibly prevent some small lamb predation by the removal of foxes and their dens. I'll give you that much if the lambs are still small enough to be killed by adult foxes when you are present. Unlike coyotes, the lambs quickly outgrow the adult foxes. Like calf problems, it's a small window of time when foxes take lambs. If you are there at that time, then you provide the same service as we do by taking the den and trapping the adults. To my knowledge, you are the only one doing that in the west.
Ironically, if it wasn't for ADC trappers removing the problem animals, landowners would take matters into their own hands leaving far less coyotes for the recreational fur trapper or the live market pup trapper.
BW: "what the heck do they expect for 6 cents a head? that wouldn`t even buy a dose of ivermec for the calves to keep them from dying from worms."
I've never heard of calves dying from worms you dork. Nobody worms calves until they are old enough to ingest them by grazing grass. Another of your idiotic statements. When the cattlemen's $06 and the sheepman's $.25 is matched $2 to $1 by the state, they get a lot for their $.06 per head. You have to keep in mind, most cattlemen do not require the service and those that do only need it during a very short period of time. In comparison, sheepmen require year round population control hence the difference in rates.
That's a hell of a lot better deal than a live market pup trapper that shows up at his convenience only to remove the younger animals. Besides, you don't go to the problem areas, you go where the animals are the thickest as any good businessmen would. Point being, you are not a substitute for a professional, responsible, accountable ADC program and never will be.
They give a rats ass about coyote control or they would not have agreed to the $06 per head. With the match from the Wildlife funds, they don't need to pay anymore than that. If coyote populations rebound from the mange, with less sheepmen, they will probably agree to raise that assessment from $06 to $08 which would generate 1/4 million in this state with the match money.
I'm sure I lost you a long time ago. I can only imagine the spin you'll put on it.
I didn't figure you'd want to debate your silly "sick and the weak" statement or how we "SUPPOSEDLY" fudge the numbers. You'd fall flat on your face trying to defend either of those silly notions.
~SH~
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Post by bobwendt on Apr 9, 2006 19:53:07 GMT -6
I repeat, I have never taken a den of pups without I got BOTH ADULTS, fox or coyotes. I trap every den on the ranch, and they are all sheepmen. no need for another trapper to be there till more move , likely the in the next winter. you could count the summer in migration on one hand and have fingers left over. there are none left when I leave. follow me sometime, you`ll starve. the rest of that additional page of rambling really has nothing to respond to. were they MANDATED to vote the 6 cents, i.e. had no choice? Is it like the pork ck off where if 51% vote for it ( the guys with sheep in addition to cattle) that the whole 100% HAVE TO PAY IT? I think so.
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Post by bobwendt on Apr 9, 2006 19:55:48 GMT -6
p.s. most do fudge, not so much the coyote kills raising, but the other animals that never go on the count. mostly kit fox killed by getters and some other animals I won`t go into for obvious reasons. ws trappers are like any segment of the human population, some dedicated workers and others sneaky slackards.
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Post by Wiley on Apr 10, 2006 15:59:00 GMT -6
Magnum: "I repeat, I have never taken a den of pups without I got BOTH ADULTS, fox or coyotes."I believe that you pick up a high percentage of the fox but I don't believe that about coyotes for a minute. Your methods are too sloppy for picking up many adult coyotes and how many coyote dens do you find in fox denning country? You're talking about water and oil with fox and coyotes Bud. You and I both know that so who do you think you're kidding? In your Wyoming spring/summer runs, you are targeting the fox, not the coyotes and understandably so because you can make more money that way. You'd be a fool not to but don't try to pretend you are a replacement for an ADC trapper that is there removing coyotes when the sheep blood hits the ground because you are not and we both know it. Be what you are not what you're not. Besides, you already mentioned letting the G'man know where the coyote dens are tipping your hand once again. Magnum: "I trap every den on the ranch, and they are all sheepmen."Bullsh*t! You already said you let the G'man know where the coyote dens are so no, you don't trap every den on the ranch. You trap every FOX den you can find and fox are stupid. Where you have fox dens you won't find many coyotes. We both know that. Magnum: "no need for another trapper to be there till more move , likely the in the next winter."In a previous post you stated that you had contacted the WS trapper about a toed coyote so don't try to blow smoke up my ars. You already showed your cards. Magnum: "you could count the summer in migration on one hand and have fingers left over. there are none left when I leave."Again, bullsh*t! If there is coyotes there when you come, there is coyotes there when you leave due to: 1. Your live market trapping methods are too sloppy for catching a high percentage of adult coyotes. 2. You are targeting the fox in fox areas, not the coyotes in coyote areas. I'd welcome a debate on either fact with you. Bob coyote family groups are mobile in late July and early August when the coyotes leave the dens. Voids that are created by the removal of a coyote den and the adults (if you are lucky enough to catch them with your methods) on the sheep will be filled by neighboring family groups of coyotes EXPANDING THEIR RANGE. Aside from that, there is a percentage of the population that are gypsy coyotes moving through the country continually that are not tied to any den. You don't know anything do you? I can assure you that any place you are lucky enough to remove an adult coyote or two during the denning season, coyotes in adjoining areas will absorb that area before winter. Magnum: "follow me sometime, you`ll starve."As I said before Bob, any area that you work that has coyotes when you come there I could remove coyotes right behind you. Absolutely guaranteed! Really Bob, who do you think you are kidding here? In the west, Fox den where coyotes seldom go. YOu and I both know that. If you have lots of coyotes, you don't have many fox. With you targeting the fox, you are targeting the fox areas, NOT THE COYOTE AREAS. So don't give me this bullsh*t about removing all the coyotes because the coyotes are not going to be where most of the fox are and you would be a fool to chase a handful of coyotes when the fox are so much easier and pay better. I wasn't born yesterday Bob. You may be able to get your chickidees to believe your BS but not me. I've been at this game too long. Magnum: "were they MANDATED to vote the 6 cents, i.e. had no choice?"You still don't get it do you? THE MAJORITY OF THE CATTLEMEN AGREED TO A $.06 PER HEAD TAX. Majority rules. After that, they pay the tax until the majority votes it out. DUH! Magnum: "Is it like the pork ck off where if 51% vote for it ( the guys with sheep in addition to cattle) that the whole 100% HAVE TO PAY IT? I think so."Just because it takes a 51% vote to pass it does not mean ONLY 51% agreed to it. Most checkoffs run 75% in favor. Anything else you don't know about? Magnum: "p.s. most do fudge, not so much the coyote kills raising, but the other animals that never go on the count. mostly kit fox killed by getters.."You're so full of sh*t. Bob, you will find few people that have run more M44 cyanide guns than I have over the years. A red fox can barely pull one of the newer units because red fox CHEW the damn things they rarely PULL them like a coyote. I doubt very much that many Swift fox are killed on M44s if a red fox can barely pull them. I've had red fox lay down and chew the tops off them without even setting them off. The way most Swift Fox would be captured is if someone comes along that doesn't know any better than to not use pan tension. KNOW ANYBODY LIKE THAT? I trapped the Pawnee Grasslands in NE Colorado years ago and never caught a single Swift Fox due to the use of pan tension. NEXT! ~SH~
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Post by bobwendt on Apr 10, 2006 16:16:02 GMT -6
I can show you stacks of a dozen kits next to getters, but I won`t because you believe nothing that doesn`t come out of your mouth. the toed coyote, the gman toed him, not me. I find a few coyote dens in red country and a few red dens in coyote country. ansd I work both depending on the pay and time and mood. you don`t have a clue the places I go, the catches I make or the numbers or how I do it or anything else. all you want to do is argue, twist words, quote out of context and in general be a butthead. so do it by yourself.
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Post by Wiley on Apr 11, 2006 13:00:49 GMT -6
BW: "I can show you stacks of a dozen kits next to getters, but I won`t because you believe nothing that doesn`t come out of your mouth."
Do you know the difference between a "coyote getter" and an M-44?
If you don't then you could easily be comparing apples to oranges. The newer M44s have a lot more tension in them than the old M44s and far more tension than the old .38 "coyote getters".
BW: "the toed coyote, the gman toed him, not me."
Doesn't matter, you said you caught them all which you obviously don't.
BW: "I find a few coyote dens in red country and a few red dens in coyote country."
And so do I. The exception does not make the rule. You and I both know that the majority of your coyote dens will not be near the farmsteads and highways where the fox dens are. You don't take all the coyote dens and you know it. That's why you said you let the G'man know where the coyote dens are.
BW: "ansd I work both depending on the pay and time and mood."
Exactly! I'll take that as another admission that you don't remove all the coyote dens because doing so would be counter-productive to making money.
BW: "you don`t have a clue the places I go, the catches I make or the numbers or how I do it or anything else."
I know the live market is a business for you. I know you are driven by $$$. You are not going to make any money chasing a few coyote dens in coyote country when you could be racking up the red fox in fox country. You know it and I know it.
BW: "all you want to do is argue, twist words, quote out of context and in general be a butthead. so do it by yourself."
Hahaha! That's what they all say when run up a tree.
How do you quote out of context? I post your exact sentences just so I don't take anything out of context. You just don't like it when someone introduces you to your own contradictions.
Go study your coyote tooth aging diagram.
~SH~
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Post by bobwendt on Apr 11, 2006 13:36:13 GMT -6
I take all dens on the ranches I work, or Isee to it that the gman knows where they are located. and he appreciates the extra set of eyes working all day long. if a ranch is not profitable, I drop it the next year. but if I obligate to rid it of fox AND coyotes, then I do, even if it is a monetary loss. my word is worth more than than to bail on my handshake and promise. but next year they pay or I pass. the toed coyote, never trapped that ranch the year before, so can`t blame me for not catching him. won`t be trapping it this year either as not worth my time. but I owe it to the gman to let him know where and when I see coyotes or coyote dens if I don`t have the time or desire or monetary stimulous to get them myself. if he is covered up, then I get them. bet no one does that for you, lol, at least not other trappers. you might get more flies with honey than vinigar, but hey, it`s your call in your country to operate how you see fit . if you want to be the know all do all so what to me. you might find extra eyes in your country lighten your load allowing better control. no one in your country but you? too bad.
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flea
Tenderfoot...
Posts: 19
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Post by flea on Apr 11, 2006 20:33:38 GMT -6
Coyotes don't kill many calves on our ranch but have got a few. We have had a few eat the calfs nose and lips as they were being born. Had a big calf get chased to death a few years ago, when I skinned him he had bite marks all over his hind end. Some over the neighbors have lost a few also.
Most people in the valley shoot every coyote they see for fur in the winter and fun in the summer. I think thats why we don't have much trouble.
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