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Post by bobwendt on Apr 7, 2006 19:27:01 GMT -6
wiley, your explanation of how to tell a killed live calf from, a scavenged dead calf is typical text book ,and I have no argument there as your statement are correct in relation to diagnosis of cause of death . those are elementary things anyone knows. the healthy calves killed by coyotes are just so rare it hardly ever happens. if your payck did not depend on purpetuating the myth, you might be a little more believable, but your testimony is tainted by financial bias . I have no dog in the fight. just say what I see. the cattleman everywhere else in the world wouldn`t pay 10 cents to have anyone kill coyotes, there is a reason why- coyotes affect their bottom line none. they are glad to have folks hunt and trap as they just don`t like them, but none will pay for the service as it is not needed. the sheepmen hate to see the neighboring ranch switch from sheep to cattle as they know their buffer of a neighbor killing coyotes vigorously is gone then. now why would that be? its obvious, they aren`t costing him money anymore.
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Post by Wiley on Apr 7, 2006 20:15:59 GMT -6
BW"the big fallacy is you are counting coyote kills for abandoned starving calves , or calves too weak to nurse from other factors."
That's a bold faced lie!
Once again, you display your eternal ignorance to the world.
BW"the coyotes kill the walking dead, that would die even if every coyote on earth did not exist."
Along with week old calves that are perfectly healthy. Most calves that I have seen killed by coyotes were totally healthy.
BW"kill all the coyotes you want, no sweat off my back, and I like you doing it because it helps red fox, cats and other desirable game, but you can`t crap me on telling me coyotes kill healthy calves in enough numbers to warrent control work."
I never suggested that ADC programs would be justified based solely on calf complaints. The sheep and beaver complaints more than justify it.
They certainly don't get any help from live market pup trappers that take the cream and leave the adults.
BW: "I flat don`t believe you or the figures you throw up to justify your job. w.s. preforms a valuable service in sheep or goat country, but not cattle country."
I don't care whether you believe my numbers or not Bob. You've displayed your ignorance on so many topics over the years that I have lost count a long time ago. Add this to your list of topics concerning coyotes that you don't know sh*t about.
Jeff C: "I would think that Kansas is in the top 5 cattle producing states and with a coyote behind every bush I wonder why we don't have those problems or Govt trappers?"
If cows are calving in remote areas of Kansas with a population of coyotes, without control efforts, coyotes will be killing some calves. That's not even debatable. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it's not happening. Since you don't have an ADC program, ranchers probably just tolerate the losses.
~SH~
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Post by Wiley on Apr 7, 2006 20:31:34 GMT -6
BW: "wiley, your explanation of how to tell a killed live calf from, a scavenged dead calf is typical text book ,and I have no argument there as your statement are correct in relation to diagnosis of cause of death."
Then it would only stand to reason that someone like myself who has been a cattlemen his entire life as well as an ADC trapper for 20 years would know the difference between a healthy calf and a sick calf even after it's been killed.
If you think only sick and weak calves are killed by coyotes you are just exposing your ignorance.
BW: "the healthy calves killed by coyotes are just so rare it hardly ever happens."
It happens enough to be an issue to many cattlemen. Would cattle complaints by themselves justify ADC efforts? Probably not. Does that sound biased?
BW: "if your payck did not depend on purpetuating the myth, you might be a little more believable, but your testimony is tainted by financial bias."
My previous statement just proved you wrong.
BW: "the cattleman everywhere else in the world wouldn`t pay 10 cents to have anyone kill coyotes, there is a reason why- coyotes affect their bottom line none."
Again, that statement is absolutely untrue. As we speak, Wyoming is paying a $1.00 per head for cattle in certain counties.
BW: "the sheepmen hate to see the neighboring ranch switch from sheep to cattle as they know their buffer of a neighbor killing coyotes vigorously is gone then. now why would that be? its obvious, they aren`t costing him money anymore."
I'll tell you exactly why that is Bob, because the cattlemen that adjoins a sheepman has been getting the hell killed out of his coyotes because his neighbor had sheep. When the sheepman finally turns to cattle and predator control efforts cease with it, his neighbor starts losing calves. Real rocket science there Bob.
~SH~
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Post by jeffc on Apr 7, 2006 20:40:41 GMT -6
I grew up here, been working on a farm except for when i was in the marines and worked for the Govt since I was 14. NEVER heard of a coyote killing a calf. Two of the pastures we calve in are only accesible by horse. Now I trap this area but come knowwhere near killing them all. Try getting permission to trap coyotes around here based on "Coyotes kill calves" and you'll get laughed off the place. I'm not saying they don't do some of it where you are but I am saying it doesn't happen here. And since you believe I am overrun with coyotes as stated in a past post it should happen as regular here as it does where you are right? we run over 200 pairs the neighbor has close to that and the next neighbor and on and on I'm 18 miles from the nearest town everyone knows who i am out here been living out here in this particular spot for 4 years 1000's of cow calf pairs within miles of me and never been called to trap a calf killing coyote it flat doesn't happen here.
Jeff
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Post by Wiley on Apr 7, 2006 20:52:27 GMT -6
I don't know what your situation is there Jeff. There is many variables that could affect this from one area to the next. Food availability being one. From what I have heard, you have a heck of a high prey base in that area. That would certainly change things.
If you take 52 calf kills, which was the highest number ever recorded in this 3 county area, and you divide that by the total number of cattle in this area, it's not a lot but it does happen. I'm not exaggerating it or perpetuating it, I'm simply telling it like it is.
I had many cattlemen tell me they didn't think coyotes killed calves only to call me later and say, "I would have never believed it if I didn't see it with my own eyes".
For Magnum to claim that I am perpetuating a myth for financial gain pisses me off in light of the fact that I have argued with ranchers that a calf was born dead that they thought was killed by coyotes. I wouldn't lie for personal gain.
Who knows why they don't kill calves in your area. I have no reason not to believe you because I have many cattlemen in this area that have never had a coyote problem and never will for numerous reasons. It might be the availability of prey or when they calve in relation to others. There's no question you have a lot more coyotes than I do because a good friend of mine has been both places and says there is no comparison. The old scent post surveys showed southern Kansas to have one of the highest populations in the United States. Bob Wendt's catch would testify to a high population. You don't catch that many coyotes unless there is that many coyotes there to catch.
~SH~
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Post by nvwolfer on Apr 7, 2006 21:02:41 GMT -6
why don't you call Harry Cannon who with his sons are big cattle ranchers in Longton, Kansas in Elk County and tell him that coyotes don't kill calves in Kansas.
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Post by td on Apr 7, 2006 21:16:59 GMT -6
I was thinking may be the amount of food difference like was mentioned and maybe less harsh weather. The only time I've ever been asked to catch some that were causing problems, I caught two coydogs that acted like they wanted to eat me when I approached them in the trap. Northeast kansas flint hills. Fairly rough country and a lot of cattle. Wish we had some range maggot ranchers in the area. Some of the local ranchers act a little disappointed if I catch too many coyotes. They like shooting at them or calling them. One had a "pet" pup he seen everyday in the early fall. He was hoping I didn't catch it.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen here. I'm only after them for a short period, but it seems to be rare in my area.
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Post by bobwendt on Apr 8, 2006 4:38:20 GMT -6
wiley, unless changed, the cattlemen in my area of wyoming pay 10 cents a head on cattle to ther predator board, and they have to, no choice in the matter. your area, are they required to pay, like an assesment from a bounty board? If so, how much /cow-calf pair? I have a point I am getting at but want to hear your answer first.
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Post by bobwendt on Apr 8, 2006 4:40:10 GMT -6
ps, it is no accident we have THREE gov`t employed gmen on this thread defending the killing of coyotes based on the damage they cause to cattlmen.
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Post by Wiley on Apr 8, 2006 6:28:02 GMT -6
BW: "wiley, unless changed, the cattlemen in my area of wyoming pay 10 cents a head on cattle to ther predator board, and they have to, no choice in the matter. your area, are they required to pay, like an assesment from a bounty board? If so, how much /cow-calf pair? I have a point I am getting at but want to hear your answer first."
In SD, all cattlemen pay $.06 per head.
In your area of Wyoming, cattlemen have been getting a free ride off the control of their sheepmen neighbors. That's no mystery.
Your are right, it is no accident why someone who knew something about predator control would correct your lie about coyotes not killing healthy calves. Ignorant statements like that need to be corrected.
Do you honestly believe that your live market pup trapping helps relieve livestock damage. Bwahahahaha!
Rancher: "Where's that Bob guy?"
Other Rancher: "Well he don't show up until about December"
Rancher: "DECEMBER? I'm calving now"
Good thing ranchers don't have to rely on live market pup trappers that take the cream and leave to help elliviate damage.
You got nothing on me here Bob. I already stated that ADC programs would be hard pressed to justify their existance solely based on cattle. You can't spin that.
~SH~
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Post by bobwendt on Apr 8, 2006 7:57:07 GMT -6
nev strader and wiley, don`t twist my words, I said RARELY, not enough to justify control expense, not NEVER. and lets not muddy the waters with your personal attacks on me via pupy talk ( fwiw, for every den of pups I take I also take BOTH ADULTS-FIRST, as I have this thing about leaving pups to starve, and the pups alone are unmarketable without the adults to sell with them, i.e. even if I had no consciense, it is not financially feasable to catch pups only). lets not either confuse what I do when I do it with the issue- that being coyotes are not a significant factor in killing healthy calves . I den in the spring and trap ks end of dec thru jan. no one pays me, so I trap when I please, I owe no man and no man owes me. Now, one last question, is that 6 cents /heasd in south dakota mandatory?, i.e. taken out at tax time, or is it optional?
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Post by bobwendt on Apr 8, 2006 8:03:23 GMT -6
ps, you talk in circles, how could someone catch only pups if he doesn`t show till december? the truth is I trap every month of the year as the markets and weather dictate, usually denning in may, late summer as the sheep move, again in dec thru march. I take off april and july usually as that allows my farm work and doesn`t cost me much in trapping those months. and it doesn`t cost the taxpayers or ranchers a penny whatever good I may do them, but that is not the issue, just your attempt to switch subjects as you know I`m right and you are up a tree with no escape. if you can stay on subject, lets do it, if not, I`ve been around the barn arguing minutia with you before and it is not worth mine or anyones time, and no educational benefit to argue or trade insults with a gman with a giant chip on his shoulder to justify his existance.
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Post by Wiley on Apr 8, 2006 10:23:04 GMT -6
Oh come on Bob, don't try to confuse your fox denning in Wyoming to your juevenile coyote trapping in Kansas. You aren't trapping many coyotes in Wyoming in the spring, you're trapping fox puppies and everyone knows how stupid adult fox are at the den.
Gee, you took both adult FOX on a den. Whoopi do! Do you think that's deserving of the coveted bucky beaver badge? LOL!
You brag about 6 fox at one stop, why not admit that those are mostly little puppies during the denning season not 6 adults during the fall. Hell, you even have it pictured on your dvd. There's no shame in being a puppy trapper. You trap fox puppies in the spring and you trap juevenile coyotes in Kansas in the winter. You said yourself "they're all stupid" anyway, remember? So obviously, age is not a factor.
Using your methods on coyote control work you'd starve to death. You'd be like little "tatoo" on Fantasy Island, "DE PLANE, DE PLANE" cause you couldn't get it done on the ground with padded traps, short chains, 12 hour checks, no pan tension, and everything else you do that's backwards.
Here's what you said Bob:
BW: "basically there is no coyote control for predation reasons in cattle country , as they just aren`t a factor in cattle, and the rare calf taken is usually abandoned or starving from a mama with no milk, or a tiny triple or twin that likely would never had made it anyway."
The bolded print is pure bullsh*t. You obviously don't know what you're talking about and I do because I work cattle complaints all the time. Coyotes kill healthy calves and it's not that uncommon.
BW: "Now, one last question, is that 6 cents /heasd in south dakota mandatory?, i.e. taken out at tax time, or is it optional?"
Irrelevant point Bob. That $.06 per head on cattle was voted in by the cattlemen themselves. Whether or not it is mandatory or voluntary is a moot point after they agreed to vote it in. Sorry but this is another of your lame blind dogs that won't hunt.
BW: "ps, you talk in circles, how could someone catch only pups if he doesn`t show till december?"
Juevenile coyotes in Kansas or fox puppies in Wyoming. What's the difference? You said yourself they're all dumb so what difference does age make? Bob speak with forked tongue.
BW: "and it doesn`t cost the taxpayers or ranchers a penny whatever good I may do them, but that is not the issue, just your attempt to switch subjects as you know I`m right and you are up a tree with no escape."
Hahaha! Right about what? I never misrepresented anything, I stated the facts. You are the one making these stupid claims that coyotes usually kill only the sick and weak calves. That's pure bullsh*t and anyone that knows anything about coyotes knows that.
I didn't switch topics, I simply corrected your ignorance on coyotes again.
BW: "if you can stay on subject, lets do it, if not, I`ve been around the barn arguing minutia with you before and it is not worth mine or anyones time, and no educational benefit to argue or trade insults with a gman with a giant chip on his shoulder to justify his existance."
I don't need to justify my existance and I certainly have no chip on my shoulder. If my existance wasn't justified it wouldn't be written in state statute. If I wasn't trapping individual problem coyotes, I'd be stacking up prime fur. I just happen to enjoy the challenge of taking individual coyotes better than trapping fox puppies on the den. To each their own.
You're still talking in circles, if you have better things to do than trade insults with me, then don't shoot your mouth off about G'men fudging numbers to justify their jobs. All you do is make yourself look like a bigger idiot. Kinda like hanging your bare ass out on a dvd. I'm always expecting to see you on Howard Stern for some reason. LOL!
Should we go back to being civil now or would you like to continue trading insults?
~SH~
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Post by bobwendt on Apr 8, 2006 13:17:17 GMT -6
just as I suspected, another page of trying to switch whatever you can to fox puppies, juvenile coyotes etc, not debating the fact that coyotes are not a significant source of calf death. and I told you the coyotes in ks are typically very aged coyotes due to mange killing off the pups each fall, let alone scads of greyhound men. your defense seems to be limited to belittling my trapping efforts,well that won`t fly. So , the end, I`m right and you are wrong or you wouldn`t stoop to diversion. seems everything anyone else catches is a pup and yours are all just target coyotes,hmm, get real. you kill any coyote you get opportunity to, from plane or getter or snare or trap. how come you miss all the pups- job security? lol !!!!!! I did indeed trap m,any coyotes in wyoming up till about 4 years ago. I got paid 100 bucks each. the last 4 years Ive made fast friends with the local g man out ther- 2 , one now a supervisor and the other the field man. I can make more money siccing them on the coyotes/coyote dens I find and spending my efforts on the more profitable fox. this is a business for me. as far as my fox dvd, it is only available from me, no dealers, and you never bought one, so did you pirate it or a buddy loan it to you? and yes, fox are dumb, at the den, in the fall or in wheerlchairs. 99% of coyotes are the same way, the other 1% just need a slight change up to ding sooner or later. you aren`t special wiley and you aren`t a brain surgeon nor do you hold the patent on coyote removal- lol, for whatever reasons you choose to justify it with.
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Post by tiny on Apr 8, 2006 13:30:33 GMT -6
Coyotes eat calves. And kill calves. How many varies.
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Post by k9 on Apr 8, 2006 16:37:25 GMT -6
Wow Tiny you made that look simple!
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Post by MadDog on Apr 8, 2006 17:02:02 GMT -6
Wiley says about Bob " All you do is make yourself look like a bigger idiot. Kinda like hanging your bare ass out on a dvd."
Anybody ever see Wiley on video. Shoot, shoot, shoot, miss, miss, miss. Real professional coyote killer. Should of taken shooting lessons from Big O. with the trapping lessons.
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Post by bobwendt on Apr 8, 2006 17:04:12 GMT -6
tiny- correct! the "varies" is from zero to dang few. otherwise ranchers would be looking for trappers to hire rather than trappers asking them to trap for free. wiley wouldn`t say, but I bet the 6 cents/head they pay in s.dak. ( now that really buys a lot of coyote control- lol!) is likely mandatory, i.e. thay had no choice and the 6 cents was the cheapest choice they could pay. given their drothers it would have been xero pay and zero coyote control- like everywhere else in the world. why? the zero to dang few calf kills is why. why do they consent for trappers to come on them free and remove coyotes? same answer, the zero to dang few calf kills by coyotes. plus, everyone knows ranchers, if it`s free they want it, and if they paid 6 cents, by golly they want to make dang sure they get their 6 cents worth so call in the gman if one is even seen mousing.
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Post by Wiley on Apr 9, 2006 6:29:45 GMT -6
BW: "just as I suspected, another page of trying to switch whatever you can to fox puppies, juvenile coyotes etc, not debating the fact that coyotes are not a significant source of calf death."Bob, Do you have a comprehension problem? I posted exact calf kill numbers which is a small percent of the total calves produced in this three county area. I stated that ADC programs would be hard pressed to be justified based solely on calf complaints. What the hell are you arguing about? That's not even the issue of contention here. The issue of contention is your ignorant statement claiming that coyotes usually only kill sick and weak calves and that we fudge the numbers to justify our jobs. Both total bullsh*t statements. Who is diverting the issue? I'd say it was you. You couldn't defend either statement on a bet. Your "sick and weak" statement sounds like an A/R slant from a wolf documentary on the Discovery channel. BW: "the end, I`m right and you are wrong or you wouldn`t stoop to diversion."Keep telling yourself that Bob.........ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz! I'm not diverting anything. Coyotes kill far more healthy calves then sick calves and it is not uncommon. That is an undeniable fact. You're shooting from the hip again just like you always do. I don't fudge numbers, I do as good of necropsy as I can to prove mortality either way. BW: "seems everything anyone else catches is a pup and yours are all just target coyotes,hmm, get real. you kill any coyote you get opportunity to, from plane or getter or snare or trap. how come you miss all the pups- job security? lol !!!!!!"Lecture me on diverting the topic again Bob. LOL! I never claimed I didn't take the dens. We kill them all but we primarily target the adults doing the damage. Hardly the "take the cream and run" situation that you are prone to. Now, would you like to defend your ridiculous statement regarding coyotes killing mostly the sick and weak calves? I didn't think so! BW: "wiley wouldn`t say, but I bet the 6 cents/head they pay in s.dak. ( now that really buys a lot of coyote control- lol!) is likely mandatory, i.e. thay had no choice and the 6 cents was the cheapest choice they could pay. given their drothers it would have been xero pay and zero coyote control- like everywhere else in the world. why? the zero to dang few calf kills is why. why do they consent for trappers to come on them free and remove coyotes? same answer, the zero to dang few calf kills by coyotes. plus, everyone knows ranchers, if it`s free they want it, and if they paid 6 cents, by golly they want to make dang sure they get their 6 cents worth so call in the gman if one is even seen mousing."You are so full of it. The cattle producers voted this in and recently considered raising it to $.08 per head so how can you suggest that they had no choice??? LOL! GOSH, REALLY GOT ME THAR BOB? ? You should really stop while your behind. Marty, My coyote calling competition hunting record speaks for itself. Try calling coyotes with an uncamoflauged cameraman sitting behind his uncamoflauged skylined camera on a bare sidehill and see how many coyotes you can get to stand for a shot. I was caught completely off gaurd on that and to my knowledge that is the only time I have been filmed. Again, my competition calling as well as my shooting ability speaks for itself. You apparently took my "bare ass" comment out of context. Bob, literally hangs his bare butt out on the dvd, LITERALLY. I thought it was funny myself and speaks to his level of confidence. I thought it added a nice touch. ~SH~
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Post by bobwendt on Apr 9, 2006 8:33:25 GMT -6
so, are the cattlman obligated by law to vote the 6 cents? what the heck do they expect for 6 cents a head? that wouldn`t even buy a dose of ivermec for the calves to keep them from dying from worms. even that is bare minimum 25 cents or so. my point being they must not give a rats arse about coyote control as at 6 cents a head , even a thousand cow man couldn`t pay for even one trip out to set trtaps and aboput 20 minutes of flying time. even at the taxpayer sibsidized w.s. rates, let alone a private contractor. I guess at 6 cents they can say "WE PAY" for control services. lol, the orkin man charges more than that to treat for cockroaches, like about 10 times more for a 1600 square foot area once a year.
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