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Post by JWarren on Feb 20, 2006 12:53:55 GMT -6
I don't want to be the devils advocate but if Dukes are the best bang for the money then what is the true cost of a duke if all these mods are being done when comopared to the cost right out of the box for many of the others...Like Chain and better swivels etc...some of the others already are being sold that way and don't need as extensive mods for your use??? Are we comparing apples to oranges( sorry Bob) had to get that one in there? I find machine chain all the time and most of it is free. Look in most junk piles and you can get machine chain. So for me the total cost of modifying a duke is 4 HD J-hooks, some free chain, and 5 minutes of time. Sometimes I throw a crunch proof on the 1.75s but only if handy.
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Post by plueger1 on Feb 20, 2006 13:19:38 GMT -6
I own hundreds of Duke 1.5 and take hundreds of coon with them every year. Arent too many brands that arent made some where other than the US. Sure the old dukes had some problems( pan too high and not centered, etc.) but Duke tries to listen to the needs of trappers and are improving their products all the time. Very few brands are perfect right out of the box unless you want to spend $30 and up apiece. I own some Duke 1.5s that are close to 20 yrs. old now and other than changing springs are still smack'n coon every year. Dave
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Post by markymark on Feb 20, 2006 13:30:59 GMT -6
All of the mass produced "American made" traps that I'm aware of come with the swing set chain and garbage swivels.
I purchased some Sleepy Creek 11's and was surprised by the heavyness of the chain and swivels. I ran Duke 1.5's with a few problems, the 110's that's another story. With price comes a cost. Maybe a modded up trap makes me feel better about myself IDUNNO. The trap is what it all comes down to. If it makes you feel good about yourself to take a trap out of the box and go with it your a better man than I. I need something to tinker with in the summer.
But then again I like the old Victor Pinch Pan laminated with 2 foot of machine chain for mink.
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Post by ScottW on Feb 20, 2006 14:31:05 GMT -6
I bought my first new duke 1.5's last summer after comparing them and the victors. I had intentions of using them for mink/coon/rat water traps. As steve mentioned, I want the pan to just be loose with no tension for the most part. So the pan bolt stays stock. I use some fairly stock and some partially to full modified. I'm buying some more and ALL of my 1.5 duke water traps will be laminated. I'm still undecided over whether or not to baseplate them all. I will definitely replace the stock J-hooks that duke uses. I will have all the triggers filed down to a nice straight hair trigger, along with filing the end of all the dogs to be sure their true and clean. I feel that filing the trigger to at least be square is very close to necessary if you wanna save time and catch mroe fur. So I'm not sure yet, but in the end I think I will have a bunch of new duke 1.5's next year that will be laminated, baseplated, trigger and dog cleaned up and tuned, and that's about it.
The ones I will be rigging up for upland coon/fox will be the same as above except they will have new brass pan bolts (why? because the stock ones SUCK....the the heads strip out like nothing), and they will for sure be baseplated with #2 machine chain and 3 swivels for about a foot of chain total. If a coyote were to step on the pan of one of these traps, it would be waiting there for me without a doubt! Just the same as my tricked out 1.5 northwoods.
As for other dukes, I have used their 330's extensively the last couple years and have no complaints anymore. The last thing I saw wrong with them they just changed, and that is that they made the safety hook have more of a hook to it than their 91 degree angle they had on it before! lol I cut the chain on my 330's and put a swivel in 2 links from where it's attatched to the trap, then a swivel on the end of that and cable attatched to that.
I bought a pile of 110 dukes last summer and used them this fall with no problems whatsoever for mijnk and rats. None of the unclosed jaw eyes like everyone talks about and they are strong for the most part.
120's, I bought 1 1/2 dozen of them and caught 4 marten with them. I did no mods to them this year, but before next season they will have #2 machine chain and 2 swivels within the first foot because when a big male fisher gets his head in one, you don't wanna have that stock chain with no swivels. One thing I noticed, but it didn't really bother me was this....as I was presetting all my 120's the night before setting, from one trap to the next the spring strength could vary greatly. Some felt as if you had to be a beast to set them, some were just perfect, and some felt like they were 20 yrs. old and not quite so strong. But for all intensive purposes, with 2 springs on each trap they're dandy.
I have looked over the new #4 and it looks like a nice traps.
Overall, since I got into trapping 10 yrs. ago, Duke traps in my eyes have made incredible strides in quality and evened the playing field greatly. Even if I had Victors instead of my dukes, they would still get the lamination, baseplate, and pan tuning because in my eyes it is well worth the time. The victors might not need the pan bolt and new j-hook, that's about the only difference.
Happy trapping. ScottW
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Post by markymark on Feb 20, 2006 22:13:15 GMT -6
I guess if Duke's were king why are the GMEN giving up the 3n's and going to the Bridger's?
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Post by RiverRat on Feb 20, 2006 23:17:47 GMT -6
Up untill recently duke didnt have a trap comparable to the #3 bridger which is the workhorse of the of the western wolfers, now with the #4's out you might see some changes.
My opinion is some folks do too much reading an not enough time settin traps. Little boys gotta have a certain sneaker cuz thats what they saw advertisted but dont take the time to try the ones that are the same blane shoe fore half the price. Notice most of the real pros or fulltimers are using dukes an there is a reason for that. You wont find many guys that run any real #s of 1.5 an to a lesser point 1.75s that arent dukes.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 21, 2006 7:18:43 GMT -6
You wont find many guys that run any real #s of 1.5 an to a lesser point 1.75s that arent dukes.
very true RR. And thats of course for 2 reasons - chicken and egg thing...
price....and... function.
The Dukes simply are the best perfroming trap in that size on the market. Politically incorrect with the thinner jaws- but thats whats gives them their holding power, esp on Coon.
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Post by mike692 on Feb 21, 2006 7:33:40 GMT -6
I purchased some Sleepy Creek 11's and was surprised by the heavyness of the chain and swivels. I have a couple dozen. I stopped buying them when they switched to the square pan. But they are a good coon trap. I set a few in the water this year and caught a dozen coon, a mink, and a few possum in them. If you can get an animal to put its foot in one, it's not going anywhere. But I still prefer the Duke 1.5. ;D
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Feb 22, 2006 15:17:50 GMT -6
I have been through this duke debate many times, and I'll say that the cost/quality factor comes into play. The "pros" I know aren't out catching coyotes in mass numbers with 1.75 dukes, maybe coon,mink due to cost and trap number factor sure, but then again what does it take to hold coons or mink ?
The bridgers for coyotes are the best built mass trap on the market and that is why many use them plain and simple, they mod up easy with there flat jaws and wide base plates. The problem still comes with bent dogs and pans, so for coyotes I use sterling mj600 bullet proof traps and no need to rebuild them and hold coyotes like nothing else I have ever set. More guys going to the montanas as well, as they are a heavy coyote trap as well.
It is whatever floats your boat in the end and how much trapping you do, if a guy sets out a 2-3 week 30-40 trapline and catches 20-30 coyotes then I think many will find the cheaper traps as a good bargin, but set them in heavy acidic soils or in freeze/ thaw snow conditions or run them for 3-4 months or more out of a year and then one can see the differance in you get what you pay for.
I can tell you the quality in steel as the price rises you either use cheaper steel or up your cost, most of the 330's on the market are not of the quality of 15 years ago due to rising production cost on materials and I can see it in many brands and how they loose spring tension and the cheaper chain on most brands.
I know that the high end trap makers use top quality steel and can because of the price factor, some don't want to shell out the $$ and others will but they don't compramise on materials, I think to them it isn't about selling 5,000 dozen traps each year, but having pride in making top quality equipment that last for many years versus a few in heavy demand situations.
Glen sterling I don't think ever went into building his trap to sell them at a pace of 80,000 units a year, but rather to build a high quality coyote trap that would be one that wouldn't get abused and hold coyotes as well as they could be held. He was sick of having to rebuild traps and have blown out patterns with no coyote waiting in the traps.
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Post by bigbrad115 on Feb 22, 2006 20:23:00 GMT -6
Trappnman, Just a few questions. You say you run "stock" Duke #1.75's for coyote. Are they offset or regular jaws? Any baseplating or lamination on any of them? If not baseplated,do you center swivel? Have you had any problem with the jaws being "popped" out of the frame? Any bent frames? Thanks for your time-Brad.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 23, 2006 7:06:29 GMT -6
To answer all your questions- No.
Stock traps. Except for a short trigger and pan. I've caught a conservatively estimated 1100-1200 coyotes in stock Duke 1.75s and NEVER had a popped jaw, NEVER lost a coyote to trap malfunction. Regular jaws, short chains, double staked. No laminations, baseplates, etc. Foot damage is so minimal, that the biologist that was involved in the collaring program took 100s of pictures on feet to use in his presentation and to show that steel jawed footholds are not the instruments of torture and amputation some think.
I cannot emphasize this enough, if you set 1.75s like big traps, you are doomed to failure.
Lets not confuse A with O again.Reason most "big numbers" coyote men don't use small traps is simple- they are running extended checks- sometimes a week or more.
And using a smaller trap takes time and guiding- most "Big numbers men" care less about guiding.
And in areas where dogs and cats are absent- like in the areas of 99.99999% of the big numbers coyote men, they can use bigger traps and longer checks w/o a thought.
Wasn't it not long ago that gov men carried a shotgun cause they were getting 20% pullouts in their gov issued traps? Should of had Dukes! LOL
This isn't a discussion of high end traps vs Dukes, at least not in my mind.
Bridger's are mentioned- I run a fair bit of #2 fully modified, not any better than the unmodified Dukes. IMHO, of course.
To say it doesn't take much to hold a coon isn't really true. It takes a certain type of designed trap to consistently hold coon. In this category, and in the way RR meant it when he said "big number coon and mink men use Dukes", the Duke 1.5 is the Cadillac of traps- you cannot do any better based on PERFORMANCE in a 1.5 in water and in my opinion, with coon on land.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Feb 23, 2006 16:32:10 GMT -6
Wasn't it not long ago that gov men carried a shotgun cause they were getting 20% pullouts in their gov issued traps? Should of had Dukes! LOL
That was in the 3n days and due to lack of good swiveling and a smaller jaw spread were the main issues associated with this practice.
To say it doesn't take much to hold a coon isn't really true. It takes a certain type of designed trap to consistently hold coon. In this category, and in the way RR meant it when he said "big number coon and mink men use Dukes", the Duke 1.5 is the Cadillac of traps- you cannot do any better based on PERFORMANCE in a 1.5 in water and in my opinion, with coon on land.
I'll take your word on that, but back in my water trapping days a #2 victor LS was tough to beat would hold coons well, drown mink and rats easy and would hold the occassional front foot caught beaver that had to check out rat lure as well. Not to mention very easy to bed in the creek bottoms.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 23, 2006 16:48:50 GMT -6
I agree- I love the #2 dls as a water trap.
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Post by bigbrad115 on Feb 23, 2006 19:34:05 GMT -6
Trappnman, Thanks for your reply,it was greatly apreciated. Two more questions. What length of chain are you running? Any mid-chain swiveling? Thanks again-Brad.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 24, 2006 5:57:49 GMT -6
On the Dukes, 8 kinks of cahin, a swivel at the trap and 1 at the end.
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Post by Jeffrey on Feb 24, 2006 19:51:27 GMT -6
cold steel said he would use BMI's over Duke coni bears, well I can tell you from experience that the BMI 280's aren't worth a crap, we bought 3 dozen two years ago and 25% of them have broken in two. I personally wouldn't try them again so I'm going to try another brand, I haven't decided which brand yet but I am going to try a couple brands so I don't get stuck again. I've bought 6 new Duke #4 four coil offset and I'm impressed with the heft and design and can't wait to use them! I've also bought 6 #330 mags and they are as rugged as or more so than most other 330's I'm currently using. The only hang up I have is them not being made in the USA.
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Post by k9 on Feb 25, 2006 10:28:09 GMT -6
The Gappa Twappa turned me on to Duke 1.75's some years ago, as I was always a number 3 Montgomery man. I have had no problems with them other than an occaisonal dog being knocked off by a coyote, and I am thinking of hooking up my chains differently as Steve made comment sometime back that go me to thinking on that subject.
Last year I had some money to invest in traps, and was going to buy some Montana's. I will still eventually be getting some, but the money ended up getting spent on a new Airedale Terrier.
Not sucking up to Gappa, as I heard one time that he wears a pink dress, but he had the best prices on #3 Montana's last year when I was checking on them.
The Duke 1 3/4's have done the job for me.
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Post by trappnman on Feb 25, 2006 11:22:26 GMT -6
You and Wiley...LOL
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Post by k9 on Feb 25, 2006 11:34:00 GMT -6
Well in an earlier post Steve you point out that the big numbers boys are running longer checks, and you are right.
When I set a 1 3/4 Duke here is what I expect of it.
I expect it to hold any coyote I catch, until I get there the next day.
I expect it to treat the smaller animals that I catch right.
I expect it to treat any bird dog that I catch right.
I expect it to be affordable and long lasting.
The Duke does all this for me. The paw catches I have with the Duke, I have little doubt, would hold up to more extended checks in other states.
However, I think if you put a Duke 1 3/4 on a longer chain, with a solid anchor as opposed to drags, you would expect some losses and other issues. I think even with dragging on longer chains, you would have higher losses depending on what your drag gets hooked into.
A short chained Duke on a 24 hour check, will hold any coyote I try to catch.
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Post by psb1011 on Feb 25, 2006 12:18:55 GMT -6
Use Victor #2,and Montgomery #1 1/2 for fox--no dukes,ordered 50 dozen BMI 110 magniums,and 3 dozen 330 magniums,and 3 dozen 280 BMI magniums,to use next year.Would not use a duke foot trap,but near all my compitition does.When a tractor runs over my equipment ,it is from no damage to moderate damage.When I see my competions Duke traps runned over,they are squashed beyond repair every time.I have used Duke 160,and 280 conibears,and they worked well,but get weak much quicker than my Victor conibears do.
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