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Post by bblwi on Dec 11, 2015 10:41:29 GMT -6
I am not looking for a panacea and you should know that. As a realist and a fiscally conservative person what can we do as a society to foster an atmosphere that develops fewer criminals? That is not a panacea that is a socially responsible society. Yes many on the far left may feel that more dollars and more programs are the best ways. Those on the far right say no to that and just arm yourself and shoot first. I as a more centrist feel we have better and more long term suitable choices. We just need to have leadership that also believes in that process. Currently under our system being a Centrist, realist does not create campaign dollar support as it is not an "edgy" issue that creates political donations.
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 11, 2015 19:44:24 GMT -6
Bruce it is a panacea because social/economic factors play much into who commits crime as well, yet gun control is going to fix that? I think not never has never will, but again as you pointed out gun control is edgy and makes the left all giggly inside.
We have a state congressional guy that is trying to get a bill in the floor here in Missouri to do away with conceal carry permits and just allow everyone to do so, as he contends the 2nd amendment and Missouri laws should allow such, here in Missouri by law with no license one can open carry unless the business states other wise without a license what so ever, he claims what does a shirt do to the person carrying the gun? Concealed or open really the same thing. One is allowe with no permit the other makes you take a class and pay upwards of 200 plus dollars to tuck a shirt over a handgun?
Guess who are the ones fighting such? Yep you guessed it the democrats in Missouri house and senate, saying that would be dangerous LOL
Yet the voters passed Amendment 5 by a 60 percent margin.
declares the right to keep and bear arms “unalienable” and subjects laws restricting gun rights to “strict scrutiny.” Sounds to me like he has a good case for such.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 11, 2015 19:51:08 GMT -6
Again someone tell me of any new idea on gun control, that would do any good for crimes deterrent? The more the left pushes the issue the more they loose on this issue, gun sales thru the roof, many states passing the same thing as Missouri voters did last year, the 2nd amendment tried in court and the justices spoke Ina. Way that opens up more pro go Than anti gun.
Many are born and raised in areas of high crime and gun use and drugs are the norm, that is where they live and hang out, it is their norm, change that and gun violence will drop but not because of new gun laws. You think those in areas as such care about gun laws? They are trying to survive and be someone on the block. If having a gun stolen or,otherwise keeps them alive that is all they care about.
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Post by bblwi on Dec 11, 2015 20:13:55 GMT -6
I was making an attempt to separate crime from gun control and you continue to refuse to do that so there is no real discussion regarding other alternatives. When you look at the issues of socio-economic issues along with cultural diversity only through the eyes that there should be more or less gun control then finding solutions to societal problems becomes difficult at best. Thank you for helping to see how you those who hold tight to your thoughts on these issues.
Bryce
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Post by trappnman on Dec 12, 2015 6:36:18 GMT -6
TC- you avoid the question, and I don't blame you-
but here it is again-
you say you believe in laws that deter crime- again I ask you- what laws are those?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 12, 2015 6:44:03 GMT -6
Bryce the thread is gun control trying to stay on such. Crime and gun control can't be separated as the left tells us all new gun control will help with crime and violence, their montra on why WE NEED more gun control. Our president once again trying to use executive order to tighten up background checks, wants to label more Sellers as high volume dealers. Again if he imposes his will on such will end up back in court. I think he has a hard time with things going thru a legal process in order to become law. Will wait and see how he classifies people as "high volume dealers". Again we shall see if anything does happen on how it will help deter crime.......... I think Obama Nedes to read this all resource information is found at the bottom and easy to look up. www.gunfacts.info/gun-control-myths/crime-and-guns/
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Post by trappnman on Dec 12, 2015 6:45:30 GMT -6
TC- you avoid the question, and I don't blame you-
but here it is again-
you say you believe in laws that deter crime- again I ask you- what laws are those?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 12, 2015 6:53:44 GMT -6
Tman avoiding nothing each state has their own laws pertaining to all sorts of things , look them up and you will see what does and doesn't work, what is fact or myth. I just gave you one above on gun control and crime and myth versus fact.
Much comes from FBI data.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 12, 2015 6:59:21 GMT -6
exactly what I figured- you logically cannot give an answer, because it will destroy your entire argument
I again ask you- what laws work to deter crime?
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Post by trappnman on Dec 12, 2015 7:19:17 GMT -6
come on, come on- answer the question-
you make the bold statement you support laws that deter crime- a fair question is WHAT laws do you them support- you know, the ones that eliminate crime
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 12, 2015 7:28:43 GMT -6
Tman first you quote me as I support laws that deter crime, then you state the question as what laws I support that eliminate Crime LOL. You see their is no elimination of crime LOL. That is why we have criminals.
Gun control does nothing for gun crimes that is a fact. This topic is on such what does gun control actually control? Those who are legal citizens and red tape is all that amounts to and pandering to a base for votes and money. Nothing more.
Many call that a "backdoor" approach and I for one am glad we have the 2nd amendment without such we would be In a world of hurt .
Going to check traps and then off to the shooting range to shoot my GUNS!
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Post by trappnman on Dec 12, 2015 7:36:05 GMT -6
again, you give no answer
what laws do you support, that DETER crime?
seems like a simple enough question-
but you are afraid to answer-
so now my 2nd question is WHY won't you answer?
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Post by bblwi on Dec 12, 2015 16:22:53 GMT -6
Your the one that brought up the socio-economic and crime issues and others are at fault for straying?
Bryce
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Post by PamIsMe on Dec 12, 2015 16:27:01 GMT -6
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 12, 2015 16:46:49 GMT -6
Pam I will end with LOL. That's is all I can say................
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Post by PamIsMe on Dec 19, 2015 18:14:13 GMT -6
My daughter and her husband were out shopping at a mall this afternoon when they heard a shot and people started running for the exits. Turned out a couple guys had an argument in front of American Eagle, one got out his gun and shot the other one. Thank heavens no would-be hero whipped out a gun and shot back at him in the crowded mall. Luckily no one else was injured. Seems like we have a shooting a day the past couple weeks in Dane County, domestic disputes, road rage and fights, so far no mass shootings but with all the publicity these get I don't think it will be long:-(
Pam
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Post by trappnman on Dec 27, 2015 8:14:00 GMT -6
I think TC's non answer is the crux of the issue, or rather, the digging in to not have a conversation issue-
TC states- gun laws are worthless, because they don't "deter crime". And follows that up by saying he only supports laws that "deter crime" but refuses to elaborate.
the use of the word "defer" important in that NO law STOPS crime, but pretty much ALL laws deter crime.
so what TC means is not defer, but stop- since NO gun law will stop gun crimes, his position therefore is we should have no gun laws
What is needed, is a conversation on realistic compromises that don't in any real way eliminate our rights but does reduce the number of gun crimes committed by crazies.
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Post by PamIsMe on Dec 29, 2015 1:47:04 GMT -6
"I think he has a hard time with things going thru a legal process in order to become law. "
If the President had waited for the processes to go through the house and senate for almost anything the past 7 years, nothing would have gotten done. And by the way, Presidential Executive orders ARE legal.
Cheers, Pam
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Post by RdFx on Dec 29, 2015 10:23:22 GMT -6
An interesting thing comes to mind ! There have been as many knivings as shootings and you dont hear about them in the news..... anyone care to reiterate? I think it doesnt create news that the radio-newspapers would draw listener-readers ! A knife kills you just as dead as a bullet !
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Post by bblwi on Dec 29, 2015 19:39:06 GMT -6
I feel having a discussion about violence and not having any "means" or "tools" as part of that discussion is one reason why we have made very little progress. It is much easier to just dis the under employed, unemployed assistance recips, the criminals, the minorities etc. etc. than it is to really talk about meaningful ways to deter crime of all types and foster cultural opportunities for our citizens to communicate better and become more empathetic regarding each other than devisive. There is however a lot to be gained by many to continue our current divide and conquer or just bash attitudes because it generates funds. Our current presidential campaign is a prime example.
One reason that knives or rolling pins or baseball bats may not be part of a large discussion like guns are is it is much more difficult to kill or injure dozens in a theater or school or gym with those items. There are places where knives are as unwelcome as guns. Just try to hop a flight today with pocket knife or even a 2 ounce bottle of shampoo.
Bryce
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