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Post by trappnman on Dec 5, 2014 7:00:28 GMT -6
love to do so- but all those "edited dec 1" notes on the bottom of your posts, makes that tuff to do-
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 5, 2014 16:17:15 GMT -6
Tman any editing I do is for spelling after Re reading post, very seldom will you find me changing my post for content, so you should be able to find something to point to? iPads are not great for spelling as they try to think what your going to write
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Post by trappnman on Dec 5, 2014 17:25:31 GMT -6
you did more than edited spelling- you change the entire paragraph
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 5, 2014 22:14:29 GMT -6
Ok if you say so, then pick out a other paragraph?
What one did I edit the entire paragraph please?
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Post by bblwi on Dec 6, 2014 23:18:05 GMT -6
If you edited a paragraph and can't remember which one or the topic that speaks volumes to me as to the thought that goes into your posts.
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 7, 2014 7:08:39 GMT -6
Bryce I was trying to be diplomatic Do I really think I edited information out? Nope.......... But why argue it really? Tmans contention was I contradict myself many times in my post. I just asked him with all the post I have made on this thread surely he can find one yet? Bryce seems some want to attack the messenger versus the message that happens a lot on forums when dealing with politics......... I am used to it
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Post by trappnman on Dec 7, 2014 7:48:01 GMT -6
TC- you DID delete your opening paragraph about the Hutterites.
easy to see- read my responses, based on what you still left up-and you can see, I'm responding to something no longer there
contradict yourself? no, never made that claim- what I do claim, is you introduce an issue that is meaningless to the discussion forces us to either ignore it, or respond- then you switch to another subject, etc
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 7, 2014 13:28:59 GMT -6
I felt the Hutterites are a great way to show that a small segmented group of people can provide for themselves without the government taking care of them from birth to death. The reason I brought up the Hutterites into the discussion.
The reservations many are not about land mass size, it is what can they and willing to do with the many millions of acres they do have today? Much of it is underutilized and stating such is well just a fact. they have resources, I would much rather see them use what they got from the government to make it work and produce long term income and put their people to work versus what has been going on for years, as it is a no win situation for any involved, that has been proven we know what doesn't work try to work on new plans and ideas to what could or might work.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 7, 2014 13:44:30 GMT -6
the Hutterites do what they do, because the practice communal living
Do you think we all should do such?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 7, 2014 15:13:19 GMT -6
WE ALL do not have to live the same, but isn't the real Native American way communal living as well? What is the point of reservations and sovereign nations if not communal living?
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Post by bblwi on Dec 7, 2014 19:31:46 GMT -6
You keep denying that you edited a post that others say you did, so if we are to choose who may be correct then we have to make choices as well as those who post and then seem to not remember if they deleted, edited a portion or not. There is nothing wrong with editing posts or make changes but it may be appropriate to indicate those edits when there is a lengthy thread regarding issues based on what has been posted in previous posts. It is nothing more than common courtesy.
Bryce
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Post by bblwi on Dec 7, 2014 19:37:35 GMT -6
Many of us were stating in earlier posts that the Native Americans have a more communal and social society and your last posts indicates you agree with that statement, yet you say reservations are a failed social system. Many have also stated that we have had some real issues with how we have dealt with our Native American Citizens. Yet you realize that establishing a reservation is an attempt to mimic their previous social system. We may not have managed that system well but we were in many ways attempting to maintain a social structure even if it was more of a captive nature. Now I don't know if you feel the system we established is the social failure or if you feel the Native American Communal system with high levels of socialism was a failed society system from the beginning.
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 7, 2014 19:52:18 GMT -6
Bryce they are a failed social system, because that is what they are ! Good grief The Hutterites get NO monthly payment, they get no bought and paid for private healthcare system, they get NO food stamps. They pay for everything out of their own pocket. Ay hat is a big difference they are a private group of people by their religious beliefs choose to live in a commune form, yet they do not shut them selves out from the outside world. in fact they profit nicely from the outside world. They sell AG commodities to many people from outside the colonies as well as provide for their colonies. The Native Americans have been setup to a point which is controlled by congress for ALL of their basic needs in life. Self worth goes out the window in many of these families because of such, they need better and should be trained to do things as the world out side will continue to pass them by. They have 70-80 percent unemployment unless your lucky enough to be in a major market and have a casino, the Hutterites have zero unemployment, they have high poverty rates, the Hutterites have what they need. The native Americans have super high suicide rates, the Hutterites have far less, then native Americans sit inside of a box that is controlled by people in DC, the Hutterites think outside of the box and how to grow more and make more. yes I agree they are both communal people but after that stark differences and that was my point. ALL Along. We continue to stay status quo on many reservations with the same outdated and failed system. I know this because I lived 2 miles from one of the largest indian reservations in the US by land mass. My wife taught in their main city. 8,400 people and over 4,400 sq miles in space. WE need to rethink the entire process because it has been broke for many years and staying the same what real benefit can come from it? None I feel is the correct answer.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 7, 2014 20:05:22 GMT -6
First they need to put more emphasis on education, second they need to be taught and trained for employment, then the govt needs to help them find a fit on these Indian reservations to make money from their areas, and I am talking more than a store selling beads and trinkets. if the ground is good for ranching then ranching they should do, trained and setup and market their product and sell their product in open markets. They could compete really well with lower overhead. Start to finish farrowing could be an option, getting educated people that can come back and put people to work on these reservations instead of the handful that go off to college and the majority do not come back because they have no employment in many of these areas. heck I do not have the answers but man something has to be done or things will never change, to state we might not have done a good job is a serious understatement to say the least. many of these reservations are in dire straights and hand outs and more govt money won't solve it without teaching them how to fish, instead of just sending them fish every month. yep a biblical phrase
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 7, 2014 20:10:21 GMT -6
Then compare that a Hutterite colony where kids at a young age are expected to work not hard manual labor but work and as they grow both in education, the Hutterites have come along ways with their education model,in the last 25-30 years, they also are taught more trades and given freedom to do various jobs on the colony and then they are watched for a period of years and given a job that best fits their education achievements and achievements with on the job training, not much different than life off the colony really in direct terms. There is no skipping school on the colony My father in law left because he did not think hat Was the life for him after being raised in it for 16 years of his life, so he left and has worked hard all his life. he knew what the outcome would mean for many years and he was wiling to make BIG sacrifices for a more free life, each to his own but he is 74 and still has the accent he was born with he still has traits, mannerisms and other things even after being gone for almost 60 years that one can tell he was born Hutterite I find that intriguing to say the least.
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Post by bblwi on Dec 7, 2014 21:38:09 GMT -6
Who is they? How does that happen? Who will be responsible for those changes? In WI the tribal governments have their own security force, laws and education system etc. Tribal law is by consensus which is one reason tribal governments move more slowly and change comes more slowly as well. Several non-Native Americans are employed in certin positions but the tribe is the leader and sets policy etc. You say failed and then talk about what is needed but don't suggest how that happens and if the culture of the Natives should bring that about or by a combined system. There are many educational opportunities here in WI. I know several persons that taught on the reservations in the technical college system or in the Native American Technical Centers and many of the students became proficient in many skilled areas but did not want to leave the reservation and thus did not find gainful employment even with the skills they have.
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 8, 2014 5:55:14 GMT -6
BIA Bryce and yes they work with HO chunk and other Indian reservations in WI and all over the US.
Again the education k-12 is not good, again just a fact......... It starts at home and also at the school. I will leave it at that. if you think the reservation educational system is up to snuff then so be it.
Here is the press clip for what BIA does. Words and actions two different things.
The United States has a unique legal and political relationship with Indian tribes and Alaska Native entities as provided by the Constitution of the United States, treaties, court decisions and Federal statutes. Within the government-to-government relationship, Indian Affairs provides services directly or through contracts, grants, or compacts to 566 Federally recognized tribes with a service population of about 1.9 million American Indian and Alaska Natives. While the role of Indian Affairs has changed significantly in the last three decades in response to a greater emphasis on Indian self-governance and self-determination, Tribes still look to Indian Affairs for a broad spectrum of services.
The Indian Affairs offers an extensive scope of programs that covers the entire range of Federal, State and local government services. Programs administered by either Tribes or Indian Affairs through the Bureau of Indian Education (BIE) include an education system consisting of 183 schools and dormitories educating approximately 42,000 elementary and secondary students and 28 tribal colleges, universities, and post-secondary schools. Programs administered through the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA) include social services, natural resources management on trust lands representing 55 million surface acres and 57 million acres of subsurface minerals estates, economic development programs in some of the most isolated and economically depressed areas of the United States, law enforcement and detention services, administration of tribal courts, implementation of land and water claim settlements, housing improvement, disaster relief, replacement and repair of schools, repair and maintenance of roads and bridges, and the repair of structural deficiencies on high hazard dams, the BIA operates a series irrigation systems and provides electricity to rural parts of Arizona.
Through Indian Affairs programs, Tribes improve their tribal government infrastructure, community infrastructure, education, job training, and employment opportunities along with other components of long term sustainable development that work to improve the quality of life for their members.
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Post by bblwi on Dec 8, 2014 18:12:51 GMT -6
You list a lot of what the BIA does and how it governs and how the Constitution protects the tribes, yet you continue to say the whole thing is a failed system with very little if any thoughts on how to improve the situation. I again go back to one of your original statements that the USA Reservation system is the largest failed social system in the USA. Even if the Reservation system is foiled if it were the largest failed or perceived failed social system in the USA the anti social citizens in the USA would have almost nothing to argue about as the system is so small when compared to total budgets, citizens impacted etc. I have not heard one TEA Party candidate talking about the current dismal failures of our Native American Reservation residents. That may well be an indication of why so little is being done to improve the failures you are talking about here.
Bryce
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 8, 2014 18:41:30 GMT -6
Bryce has been going on for many years long before the tea party might be a small segment but has a big impact on those people, the very ones the dems stump for votes each election cycle and are the ones that most native Americans vote for and have for many,many years with no relief in site.
Bryce been going on much longer than the word tea party has been used in modern politics.
If one reads you will find many of them with ill will towards Ol' Tom Daschle making his swing through the SD reservations promising things that some how seemed to be forgotten after Re election. No secret they vote democratic by a large margin, sending the same people to office for years and years with little change........... Sure they bring back a few 100,000 here and there but again throwing money at this issue has been proven out not to be an answer.
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Post by trappnman on Dec 9, 2014 8:09:21 GMT -6
odd, I see no election signs on the Res here- nor dems stumping for votes
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