|
Post by bblwi on Dec 1, 2014 14:01:52 GMT -6
Comparing or stating that Native American Reservations are the largest socialistic experiment ever is ridiculous to state when we have Social Security and Medicare that impact 50-60 million citizens if not more instead of say 2-3 million if that many live on reservations. I would state that the reservation system was more of a geographical relocation system than anything else. Then when you put people on unproductive land and follow the treaty guidelines you wind up providing funds as well.
Bryce
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Dec 1, 2014 16:23:40 GMT -6
and look at the social experiments, that took us out of the 30s!
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 1, 2014 17:50:05 GMT -6
Bryce people have to work to get SS far different than the programs set up on Indian Reservations, number aside and even when talking far fewer they still,live in an environment setup, ran and paid for by our federal govt. if you choose not to see it as a socialist experiment so be it, but that is what it is.
Bryce the very land in which they live on is operated and ran by cattlemen and sheepmen and has been in family generations for many,many years. the ground is not as fertile for crop production that I I agree with, but it is ample for livestock production and is the cheapest means to get large numbers of cattle and sheep to feed lots bar none.
I know native Americans that work their ground and provide for themselves a nice living from it, if the govt really wants to do something they should be allotting them with 100 bred heifers or cows. each Native American family should receive such and they could make a living from it. 200 2-3 year old bred ewes and a few rams to go along with those cattle. they would have something lasting.
What the federal govt has been doing for years and years has been to provide without teaching them how to sustain as the world changes.
Tman was it the programs from the 30's or the people that made this country?
if you want a great example study the Hutterites of South Dakota as people that can retain their heritage and change with the world. They are a people of their own, but know how to live in an ever changing world quite well.
They do so with no help from the federal government.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Dec 1, 2014 17:54:35 GMT -6
you are against all socialism, but tout communal living as your example of a...what? I'm not sure
in any case, the social programs of the era, is what made the middle class what it was- the same interests, are trying to return things to the 20s-30s- and you are running along side yelling yippie ky ya
reservations weren't a socialist creation- they were a prison system without bars because we got tired of them wanting their lands back
|
|
|
Post by bblwi on Dec 1, 2014 18:01:14 GMT -6
You don't have to work to get SS or Medicare. You will qualify for a minimum payment if you don't have enough quarters to get a payment based on earnings. As to Medicare you can get Medicare without paying in. We had hundreds if not thousands of dairy farmers in WI with the farm in the husband's name and thus spouses were not paying into SS or Medicare and they did receive payments and Medicare. Part of my work was to organize a wages system for the spouses so they paid in and would qualify for higher SS. Also youth under 18 in a family entitle the family to receive SS benefits until they are 18 years of age. There are also quite wealthy persons that have only interest and dividend income for decades (no earned income) and they receive Medicare benefits. The Native Americans in WI especially the Oneida's create a huge employment through their farms, casinos and conference centers so I am not as used to seeing Native Americans doing nothing as you may be where you have lived. There are share payments that go to all the Natives as tribal members for some tribes. Our Ho Chunk Nation grants 200K to those tribal members who graduate HS. They are working on changing that system as much of the money is not utilized as well as hoped for.
Bryce
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 1, 2014 18:34:26 GMT -6
Hutterites are self serving people, they live off the land , they make their own clothing, they sell goods and services to others and pay for everything in cash No credit what so ever. You can buy many things from them at a good price and they ALL work. They have no need for TV, in fact none of them have such in SD. They manufacture, they farm, they raise livestock, they go to school on their colonies and have outside teachers they pay to come to the colonies to keep them in touch with the Outisde world and teach them things outside of the religous background.
The difference is yes Hutterites have a boss man in charge of the money but they are a private enterprise, they are not using federal tax dollars and they have competition in open markets in which they sell goods. Big turkey producers and in some areas they sell a lot of milk like in Canada colonies, they have no problem competing with others in AG business. In fact it is tough for others to compete with them on price for food items. I used to buy many fresh produce from the colonies and their chickens are excellent at a price that is tough to beat in a grocery store.
Tman here is the definition of Socialisim .
dictionary.reference.com/browse/socialism socialism definition. An economic system in which the production and distribution of goods are controlled substantially by the government rather than by private enterprise, and in which cooperation rather than competition guides economic activity.
This is what has been happening on many Indian reservations in the western US for years.
Bryce yes there are a few Indian reservations with gambling in SD but many do not have such and frankly don't have the means to raise money for building such either. They rely heavily on BIA and other government programs to sustain them. That is not a model that will create prosperity and self worth. IMO.
Bryce I know some who don't have to work but the majority do work for SS benefits .
|
|
|
Post by bblwi on Dec 1, 2014 20:31:42 GMT -6
Your statement earlier stated you needed to work to get SS and Medicare. I was just clarifying the fact that your statement was not correct. There are dozens of Amish and Mennonite colonies scattered worldwide that do similar to the Hutterites. Depending on which order they have varying degrees of modern tools they can or can not utilize. But then if we add up the Native Americans, Hutterites, Amish and Mennonite they don't make up a large part of the population of the US. Bryce
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 1, 2014 20:54:54 GMT -6
They don't need to make up a large portion of the population they do just fine on their own. My father in law was raised on a Hutterite colony and left at age 16 with his brother. That takes a set to do,such at such an age. We still get to visit my wife relatives on the colony and I am amazed at their work ethic and shear know how on how to build, repair and work deals .
His brother is the man in charge at the colony in SD we visit.
They have a kitchen for the woman that is very advanced. many proofers for making doughs and the amount of food,they cook,in a day is mind blowing. Built their own walk in cooler rooms and walk in freezer rooms. These guys built their own elevator for taking things down to the cool rooms and wine rooms.
many reservations could learn from the colonies and do better without all the government intervention and the govt could spend money far better through BIA and other programs if they could get a bigger percent buy in to learn something that will offer them long term value.
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 1, 2014 21:28:26 GMT -6
Tman Any govt that try's to take care of all your needs is a govt too big and too intrusive in my book. That govt becomes dangerous as it makes people more complacent and relying on such.
We need parts of Socialism that allows people to prosper on their own, law enforcement, safety, schools, fire, ambulance services, roads, etc.
WE had a vote last election cycle to have a fire district where I live, I voted for it and to have that fee added to my taxes it will help all rural residents in my area and will help to keep lower my home owners insurance as well. So I pay for it one way or the other. I would rather have a voice in the district than give it to insurance. The district will offer more for the money than the insurance companies would as far as an increase in rates. Common sense on that one.
You might see that as Socialism, I see a chance for me to have more say with a district and a voting member of such.
Many federal,govt programs of Socialism do not offer a voice to all,involved they are legislated by congressional people, these people seem to know what is best for others. That I am against in many regards.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Dec 2, 2014 8:11:58 GMT -6
some facts about Hutterites-
Hutterites practice a near-total community of goods: all property is owned by the colony, and provisions for individual members and their families come from the common resources
Hutterites attempt to remove themselves from the outside world (televisions, and in some cases internet are banned), and up until recently, many of the Lehrerleut and Dariusleut (Alberta) colonies still only had one central phone. The Schmiedeleut had made this transition earlier, where each household had a telephone along with a central phone for the colony business operation. Phones are used for both business and for social purposes. Cell phones are also very common among all three groups today. Text messaging has made cell phones particularly useful for Hutterian young people wishing to keep in touch with their peers. Most Hutterite homes have computers and radios; a minority of communities (mostly, liberal Schmiedeleut colonies) have Internet access. Farming equipment technology generally matches or exceeds that of non-Hutterite farmers. Lehrerleut colonies have recently struggled with the proliferation of computers and have clamped down such that computers are no longer allowed in households and their use is limited to only business and farming operations including animal, feed and crop management. But as the world evolves more and technology is used more and more for work and communication, many Hutterite young people use computers, photos and internet for keeping in contact with their friends, relatives and meeting new people outside the colony
but I see you abandoned your Hutterite example, and now have moved on to fire districts- another shining example of socialism
but I see by your comment "you might call that socialism but..." that you are in the hide your head category- don't say the name and old Rumplestilskin won't appear.....
it appears you are against socialism, unless you see a direct benefit to yourself
|
|
|
Post by bblwi on Dec 2, 2014 9:02:52 GMT -6
The US reservation policy may not have been our shining hour but in somewhat of a defense of the original thought process outside of removal and "safety" the Native American Culture was by comparison to ours very socialistic, maybe as much or more so then our modern day Hutterite or Mennonite groups as they did it w/o money. Their cultures centered around tribal and social relationships and included property as well as food etc. The moving of Native Americans created great harm and loss but to keep them together was in a small way to keep their social culture intact. We obviously had other motives in doing so.
Bryce
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 2, 2014 19:14:00 GMT -6
Tman I have a hard time following your latest post?...........
The Hutterites continue to keep abreast of things around them and for good reason, that is smart to do so, yet they are very self sufficient people and don't need the Govts help nor do they ask for it. The older Hutterites are not computer literate and stands to reason. Some do use computers and again smart to do so, so the world doesn't leave them behind.
Tman the Hutterites are far different in aspects to an Indian reservation, they compete and sell products. They are a private entity not setup and paid for by any govt.
Bryce their social culture is dwindling in fact in many areas there are very few native Americans that are well Native American.
hard to put people inside a box and expect them to stay that way through time, also hard to keep paying for all the needs without the entire system failing which it has done on many Indian reservations. Again a large socialism program that is not working we all know it.
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 2, 2014 19:14:52 GMT -6
Tman here shows the resourcefulness of the Hutterite people they are their own corporation in all reality.
Dakota Provisions is a state-of-the-art turkey processing facility set up by Dakota Turkey Growers, a major farmers' cooperative of 44 independent Hutterite (a religious group similar to the Amish who have adopted modern manufacturing as a way to survive) turkey farmers in North Dakota, South Dakota and Minnesota, USA. It is the first full-line turkey facility to be built in the US since the late 1980s. The $45m plant was opened in April 2007 after a three year construction project. With $120m of infrastructure between them, the turkey growers needed to bring their own product to market in order to survive in the agriculture business. The plant is situated on a 114-acre site two miles east of Huron, South Dakota. The 150,000ft² production facility is designed to process more than eight million turkeys per year - more than 320 million pounds of live weight annually. When opened, the plant had over 300 workers and was processing 3.5 million heavy tom turkeys annually. By 2010, the number of workers rose to 775. This is the first full-line turkey facility to be built in the US since the late 1980s. In 2009 the plant will go to two shifts and employ 1,000 workers (processing 40,000 birds per day). That's when current contractual arrangements the growers have with other processors will expire. The site also houses a 12,000ft² corporate office. The company started to manufacture pre-sliced ready to eat meat products in early 2006. The new plant provides processing, slicing and packaging of high-quality food products for distribution throughout the US. Over the past five years, the volumes of ready-to-eat products have increased in a steady manner. In the future the plant may also branch into fully cooked pork, beef and chicken products. Production plant features
The Dakota Provisions facility boasts the latest in food safety and processing advances. Turkeys are harvested using Controlled Atmosphere Stunning (CAS) rather than conventional stunning, which is proven to be less physically taxing, making for a higher quality end product. "The company started to manufacture pre-sliced ready to eat meat products in early 2006." Birds are cleaned using a three-stage process; the final stage uses fresh water. The raw and ready-to-eat sides of the plant are completely separated for maximum food safety. Other features include: separate employee-entrances, lunchrooms, separate maintenance areas, pest prevention landscaping (only rocks, no plants or bushes), three stage scald system, clean-in-place technology, evisceration vacuum system, minimum product handling, micro resistant surfaces and computerised product tracking. Plant construction
The Stellar Group of Jacksonville, Florida was hired by Dakota Provisions to oversee the design, engineering and construction of the new plant in 2004. To make provision for the waste water from the facility the city has extended water service from the old Dakota Pork plant east and north to the turkey plant. Sanitary sewers for the site are discharged south of the plant to a new pre-treatment facility from where these are pumped to the city's wastewater treatment plant. The plant's equipment was provided by MetalBud-Nowiki. CAT2 software (primary and further processing tool series) has been implemented at the plant for full traceability of the packaged product in all areas of the operation. Dakota Provisions marketing
The facility is a fully cooked production plant that processes heavy tom turkeys. One of its major products are deli breasts for slicing in the supermarket and pre-sliced luncheon meats for food service customers. The company has planned to manufacture products under brands for other companies. "This is the first full-line turkey facility to be built in the US since the late 1980s." Initially DTG will not have its own national brand because it does not want to compete with co-manufacturing partners. But it will have a branded product to market locally and within the state. In its long-term plan natural and organic products may be produced at the plant and these will be branded. Customers would be able to identify the product by an inspection stamp by the Department of Agriculture.
|
|
|
Post by bblwi on Dec 2, 2014 20:51:51 GMT -6
I was not referencing their dwindling social structure of today. I was referencing the point that in the mid 1800s there most definitely was a very strong social structure within the many tribes of Native Americans within the USA and North America. That may have played some role in transporting whole tribes to locations instead of having them more scattered. It may have been important also for the US military at the time to contain the tribes even if they were relocating them. I think your continued comments regarding the Native American Reservation system as being a failed social system misses the point or mark by a long way. I don't feel they US government and its citizens established the reservation system as a social system for the benefit of the Native Americans. We confined them because we looked at them as a threat and also they occupied land we wanted. Now that many are becoming more self sufficient due to tourism and gaming we criticize their ability to do so with a different set of rules. Rules that we created and mandated them to follow.
Bryce
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 3, 2014 6:06:25 GMT -6
Bryce they haven't been a threat for,how many years?
Self sufficient? hardly.......... look at the number of reservations with successful gaming operations versus the numbers that have no gaming. unless your gaming is close to a major population center many are not making a lot of money. Gaming makes up a small portion of the entire Native American reservation landscape.
The government keeps running a failed program with the Native American population because the way it is administered and carried out is flawed. it does the Indian reservations little good and keeps them relying on every social program there is for their existence. It was a silly program 60 years ago and it is a silly program today........
Any ground has value it is up to a bunch of people how best to use the ground they have and put people to work with jobs that can have longevity.
|
|
|
Post by bblwi on Dec 3, 2014 9:06:14 GMT -6
I am aware of that but the system created takes a long time to change. How many candidates for federal political office have you heard campaigning on change our reservation policies. As large of a social system as you claim this to be it is not on the radar screen of politicians from what I have been able to review. We still have a school year based on agrarian life style and culture so things change slowly if at all.
Bryce
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Dec 3, 2014 10:44:11 GMT -6
no one is claiming that the reservations are a shining example on how we treat people.
they were only brought up, by you, since you claimed they were an example of a failed socialist experiment- and that's so silly its not even funny. when you lived in SD, and worked for the state, why didn't you make it your#1 issue to change things in SD on the reservations? Since they are so important to you and all.....
the hutterites were talked about, again, because you introduced them into the discussion, as an example of " good" socialism when in fact they aren't socialist, but communal and don't live the backwards life you portray from the 20s anymore- and yes, most pay taxes.
this nonsense about not existing with a federal government just isn't true- reminds me of when Joel kept claiming he could live o nan island, without the govt, while at the same time, reaping the benefits from having that govt.
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 3, 2014 20:11:24 GMT -6
When I lived in SD I had lots on my plate Tman I did what I could for the local,Indian reservation. I donated many,many pounds of protien for them to eat, deer depredation allows many fresh deer to be consumed by those in need. Won't go into numbers but me and a few other employees donated tons of meat literally. Durring blizzards out dept donated the use of our generators and I helped with that as well. Again did what I could but last I remember my title was not govenor, congressional power or the president of the US, nor was I in charge of BIA or IHS. I did deal with real issues Becuase of our local ambulance service which I sat on the city council and helped oversee, our service made many runs to the Indian reservation. The rest is well closed session stuff. I never stated that Hutterites where a socialist type people, I believe you tried to make that connection? I did state that the people in charge of the BIA and other reservation programs could learn from the Hutterites and I stand by that statement. Back woods life? If you mean backwoods because they make their own clothing, grow a very large percentage all the food they eat, sustain their lives from the land and what they can do with it I gues sure that is backwoods......... They incorperate technology where it makes money sense, they still live without TV and many do not like their photo taken, depends on what colony and lect. Your in. My point being they pay taxes yet they use little in the way of government services. They do not vote or run for public office, they pay taxes because it is the law. *Separation of church and state. Hutterites do not vote in elections or run for public office. They believe governments are God-ordained and if they have a grievance with the state, they file it in the form of a prayer. *Marriage for life. Hutterites do not allow divorce. What God has joined together, they both argue and practice, no man can separate.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Dec 4, 2014 7:35:15 GMT -6
TC, if you don't read your posts after you write them, then why should I?
you contradict yourself in every other post
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Dec 4, 2014 18:20:26 GMT -6
Please point to where I did such.............
|
|