The Spot - does it move?

[Nick C]

Once it's found is it eternal?

Can it appear in a location one year and not the next?

[thorsmightyhammer]

Ever had a girlfriend nick?
Of course it can move.

[mightydog]

.

[Nick C]

I never had a problem hitting the spot with the girls.

For coyotes, how much does having a litter or 2 in an area influence the spot?

[trappnman]

like coyotes, if girls find nothing interesting they will move on...... mine has stuck around 30 years so far.....

nick, to me your question has 2 parts- does "THE" spot move, and does having a litter of pups in an area change that.

for the purpose of theses discussions, to make it somewhat concise, "a spot" is simply a stall out area and can be either a local location (meaning used by a singular group of coyotes) or a common location (meaning used by multiple groups of coyotes.)

having a litter in an area, does, to me, increase the odds of finding "A" stall out spot, but has little do do with "THE" spot- that is, a stall out location that is used by multiple groups.

Within a territory, as long as the dynamics of the landscape are the same, I believe the same stall out locations ARE used by each generation. Because on a micro basis, what allowed a specific location to be a stall out spot, will appeal to succeeding generations of coyotes as well.

but to qualify as "THE" spot, you need more than a hilltop or quiet valley- you need ATTRACTIONS.... you need a REASON to appeal to multiple groups

What that changes, "The Spot" changes as well.

A good example- a farm with a dead pile right behind the barn- excellent location good for multiple coyotes. Last year- they built a shed, to enclose the dead pile (about 100 yards from old dead pile) and last year, remnants of the old pile still there, and I did catch one coyote there. This year, that spot will be dead- and its up to me to find the new one.

so yes, the spot can change not only from year to year, but from month to month or even week to week. a good example is on the other end- where nothing existed- but now there are 3-4 dead cows dragged in- almost instant "spot"

so much of what needs to be understood, can be found in the research, and the dead cow study, should be required reading for anyone wishing to improve on taking coyotes in a quick manner

[musher]

Steve: are you saying that all this coyote spot discussion comes down to locating a bait pile?

If so, I'm disappointed! The entire "rocket science" aspect of catching yotes in quantity will have been an illusion.

[Zagman]

"The Spot"......so secret, the coyotes don't even know it's there!



Year in and out, while I have some consistent producing locations, my SPECIFIC locations that produce big numbers is far from something I can count on.....

Family groups change, territories change, etc. Ever notice one year several farmers say there are coyotes everywhere, "hear them every night!".

Then, the next year they say there are none around, don't hear any! Yet, in the whole of my line, I am taking the same or more.....

I just think the groups are in different locations largely, and while their concentrations are the same over my whole area, specific family groups are on one side of the mountain this year, I kill a few of them, maybe even big mama, and next spring, the new female camps out on the other side of the mountain, valley, etc......so Farmer Brown doesn't hear them as much that summer, yet Farmer Smith on the other side does....

So, while the groups are not necessarily in the exact same area, points of interest, blockages, travel ways, etc remain largely the same......

So, while I certainly know what a really super-good, hot location is (maybe it's the SPOT, don't know) I know that things can and do change annually, and therefore, assume the SPOT can and does change in kind.

When you add to the fact that you can create your own hot locations/stall-outs and have them be productive immediately, how can the SPOT, therefore, be thought to be stagnant and constant when you can create your own in one night?

Zagman

[bogio]

Aug 1, 2013 6:54:32 GMT -6 musher said:

Steve: are you saying that all this coyote spot discussion comes down to locating a bait pile?

If so, I'm disappointed! The entire "rocket science" aspect of catching yotes in quantity will have been an illusion.

If this were the case, all that would be required to become a "coyote wizard" would be to collect dead livestock and road kill and drag it out to a spot turning it into "the spot". There is "just a little more" to it than that.

[trappnman]

musher- no, you aren't destined to be disappointed- the secret to the spot is just not dead piles.

the secret to the spot is this: a location where MULTIPLE COYOTE GROUPS stall out

anyone can find "a spot" to catch coyotes, and anyone, myself as proof of the pudding, can find spots where one can catch multiple coyotes........set up where a litter stalls out, and bobs your uncle.

the "secret" is determining locations where the attraction is such that MULTIPLE GROUPS stall out there- and the secret is in knowing such exist, and taking that as a givne- indeed nothing is secret, except having an open mind, and accumulating knowledge.

I've said it once, I said it 100 times- I HAVE that knowledge concerning "the spot" for mink..ie not quite the same per se, but the point being decades of knowledge, in all kinds of weather and all kinds of circumstances, allows me to look at an area, and to then not guess, but to KNOW the precise spot that is THE spot for that location.

I also have read/heard a 1000 times- I don't want to walk all over looking for that "spot"..and my thought was- I don't.

the limitations to understanding "the spot", often comes down to IMO not accepting that such exists.

so Musher- dead piles aren't the spot- but without a doubt cattle and dead piles ARE many times the attraction to that area.

The "secret" is WHERE on the way to that attraction, are they (meaning multiple groups) stalling out? And the secret to THAT- is, IMHO, the innate characteristics of coyotes- THAT determines where that stall out location is.

a personal note- I don't set very many if any locations where I can't see/smell cattle or sheep. Why? the obvious- cattle and coyotes go together...part of those innate characteristics I guess....

Year in and out, while I have some consistent producing locations, my SPECIFIC locations that produce big numbers is far from something I can count on....

over the past three years, my top 5 locations have BEEN THE SAME each year- and have produced multiple doubles and 2 triples over that time frame and started producing with doubles the first night- and I mean setting the traps pretty much in the old bed from the year before.

since the attraction/landscape didn't change from year to year, THE SPOT did not change either.

[blackhammer]

Do coyotes disperse like red fox in the fall?

[trappnman]

I'm not sure how red fox disperse, or more aptly when.

Coyotes, I believe, disperse later in the year, and come in 2 waves- harvest, which changes the landscape and winter, which does the same. I've oft wondered if coyote dispersal came from need, or nature- and I think its some of both. During harvest and winter, its need- during breeding season its nature.

I also believe that with coyotes (and maybe fox as well) that dispersal is more of a shifting position

[Nick C]

So when searching for the spot, what affect does the topography of the area have on it?

[blackhammer]

Supposedly when we had fox according to the studies, dispersel started in early October and peaked in mid November with the young males leaving first. Traveling at an average twenty miles and some would go a hundred or more miles .They almost always traveled alone. In the heyday guys who would set on the good traveling location, the spot would catch at times 30 fox.. There was an extensive study done on fox dispersel in Iowa. I suppose these 30 fox sets would be similar to what you guys call the spot for coyotes? Is coyote location more complicated than just setting natural travelways?

[musher]

Aug 1, 2013 7:53:16 GMT -6 bogio said:

Aug 1, 2013 6:54:32 GMT -6 musher said:

Steve: are you saying that all this coyote spot discussion comes down to locating a bait pile?

If so, I'm disappointed! The entire "rocket science" aspect of catching yotes in quantity will have been an illusion.

If this were the case, all that would be required to become a "coyote wizard" would be to collect dead livestock and road kill and drag it out to a spot turning it into "the spot". There is "just a little more" to it than that.

That is what most coyote trappers in Quebec do. I wouldn't call them wizards but guys that label 50 a year aren't rare. Bait station and snares with winter and voila.

Steve: I would expect multiple families to quarrel at overlapping territories. I wonder what makes such an area "neutral" ground as opposed to a territory that must be defended. There must be something specific regarding the place where the Venn diagram overlaps.

Such a spot could never exist with wolves. Crossing the line can be very dangerous.

[trappnman]

keep in mind these are my thoughts only- if others agree or disagree thats up to them.

The topography has a good deal to do with it- in fact, back 20 years ago I knew such places existed from the collar study (I called them social areas, party spots) but didn't know WHY they existed, and tried to duplicate such based entirely on the physical characteristics of the location, and had some success in doing so.

but that topography isn't consistent - that is, while some physical characteriscs might be duplicated, the physical part was not dominate in where such spots occurred.

its a combination of many factors

look at it like this- an area thats flat will have (assuming the coyote population in general is there) will have, given an attraction point thats good enough (dead cow study once again), such spots- and so will hilly and wooded areas.

100% different topography- but the same result.

finding the attractions is the start, but finding the spot at/near the attraction is the key.

I could give a few examples of what I look for- but whats the fun of being told, when the true knowledge comes from the figuring it out. and by no means am I trying to come across as an expert in this- but as a dedicated student

[trappnman]

musher- a wise man once asked me- do I think they are there at the same time?

I also have come to realize, that territory and range are two complete separate things. that territory is defended, and that only in breeding, rearing pups, etc- once pups are gone, territory is not defended much

bogio- do you (or anyone) have the link to the dead cow study? That study and others, shows how 2 things effect the interaction of coyotes- lack of food, and overabundance of food.

Is coyote location more complicated than just setting natural travelways?

coyotes go where they want to go- look at tracks in snow, and see how they go wherever they want- cutting corners, going across fields etc when travelling- wheras fox, to my belief, tend to follow the natural lines more- not saying coyotes don't, but its not hard and fast.

where this all comes into play- is do you want to set traps and wait for thme to find you, or set where they are now?

[blackhammer]

Aug 1, 2013 10:49:28 GMT -6 trappnman said:

musher- a wise man once asked me- do I think they are there at the same time?

I also have come to realize, that territory and range are two complete separate things. that territory is defended, and that only in breeding, rearing pups, etc- once pups are gone, territory is not defended much

bogio- do you (or anyone) have the link to the dead cow study? That study and others, shows how 2 things effect the interaction of coyotes- lack of food, and overabundance of food.

Is coyote location more complicated than just setting natural travelways?

coyotes go where they want to go- look at tracks in snow, and see how they go wherever they want- cutting corners, going across fields etc when travelling- wheras fox, to my belief, tend to follow the natural lines more- not saying coyotes don't, but its not hard and fast.

where this all comes into play- is do you want to set traps and wait for thme to find you, or set where they are now?

So basically there are more efficent ways to catch coyotes than setting travelways and waiting.I assume when guys trapped fox in that manner the fur market was poor and they had little competion and cheap gas. Not being a coyote trapper I'm surprised at the way you guys value dead piles especially in the fall. I always thought that was a western thing or a deep snow winter deal and with all preybase we have in Minnesota they had limited value. A dead cow to me means possum,skunks and birds. Got a lot to learn about coyotes I guess.

[wink]

Aug 1, 2013 10:25:19 GMT -6 Nick C said:

So when searching for the spot, what affect does the topography of the area have on it?

I wouldl like to see someone address this. Locating the 'spot' in Iowa compared to here in WV. How does one locate the spot where there is minimal 'flat' land. Should it be easier??

[Nick C]

How about a comprehensive list of attraction points.

So far we have:

1. Dead Pile
2. Dead Pile
3. Dead Pile
4. ?
5. ?
6. ?

T-Man are you referencing the "dead cow study" as the one conducted in Texas? If so. I have some literature on that.

[trappnman]

blackhammer- you aren't setting the dead pile- the pile is where you do take the junk. And the behavior is different AT the pile, than the stall out spots.

I find flat land to be much easier, since both the number of attractions is limited as are possible locations. in areas here that are hilly, you have more pasture ground and pasture means cows and cows mean manure piles (an oft looked attraction) and the countless coulees/valleys/ridges make approach and use options limitless.

so for me in those locations, with such a variety of good areas- areas I know in the past I can take a coyote or two here, next door, down there etc...the goal is to STOP SETTING FOR THE SAME FREAKING COYOTES (caps for me in hopes I'll remember it and heaven knows I'm trying) on multiple locations, and find the 1 or 2 main"spots" in that extended geographical area- thus the quest for "THE spot" so I can set multiple traps, get em and go.

I need more traps in the ground- if I ran 100 traps in good spots, based on what I'm doing now with half that more or less- who knows whats possible.

but finding those spots overall from one end of my "range" to the other.- ain't easy.

I find flat ground as I said far easier for this reason. Around here- its 90% flat row crop/cash crop land. Here and there, like jewels are big cow operations. or hogs. I prefer a big dairy over beef because here 150 pair of beef is considered a big operation- whereas a big dairy around here has far more, some 800+ milking plus either their own calf operation, or common around here to have a cluster of small farms doing calves.

I find no value in even stopping at a place where there isn't a big cow, or pig operation. None at all on the flat ground. Unless its a neighboring farm and that's considered in the macro aspect of the location.

studies show the larger the amount of carrion, the more interaction between groups. setting up the pile, is going to fill your traps with junk-

where would the spot to go, at such a location? where would, multiple groups of coyotes lay up in their approach, if their end goal was that dairy?

our clues, given by yes I'll speak his name and maybe he will appear...Rumpelstiltskin, Rumpelstiltskin.......... lay in the research.

some finding it boring- but I eat it up- esp when what you know, is explained in the research- to be able to see the "why" and "how" of "what you observe......its like domino's one thing leads to another...

it has indeed been a long strange trip down that coyote highway......and I'm just turning onto the interstate!