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Post by bogio on Aug 1, 2013 12:42:09 GMT -6
Here is what the wise man said about "the spot" in the not to distant past. It answers your question Nick:
"It exists,it changes,it`s there for a reason,AND it is incredibly productive once you learn to Identify it,why it exists,and HOW to approach it."
HOW TO APPROACH IT- the spot within the spot. That place in proximity to the draw where they are most susceptible to our offerings.
Tman- I think I have that link somewhere. I will look for it.
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Post by bogio on Aug 1, 2013 13:00:40 GMT -6
If this were the case, all that would be required to become a "coyote wizard" would be to collect dead livestock and road kill and drag it out to a spot turning it into "the spot". There is "just a little more" to it than that. That is what most coyote trappers in Quebec do. I wouldn't call them wizards but guys that label 50 a year aren't rare. Bait station and snares with winter and voila. I cannot speak to Quebec as I have zero knowledge of what is required to operate there. I do know that a couple of guys operating in conditions/terrains/populations similar to mine knocked out 30 to 40 A DAY with steel traps by trapping "the spot" and not just dead piles. Sounds like there is a good chance they are preparing to blow that out of the water.
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Post by bogio on Aug 1, 2013 13:09:14 GMT -6
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Post by trappnman on Aug 2, 2013 8:49:02 GMT -6
zags- you mentioned: When you add to the fact that you can create your own hot locations/stall-outs and have them be productive immediately, how can the SPOT, therefore, be thought to be stagnant and constant when you can create your own in one night?
I know I've seen, and would guess most guys have, where on than one occasion where a dead deer, cow, calf or whatever had not been even touched for some time with NO sign of even a visit...
but on other locations (spots) they were consumed overnight...
Why do you think that is?
Nick- didn't mean to not respond, but when I posted last, it went to 2nd page, and I missed your last post until now- is the study you have the same as Bogio posted?
I say "attraction" because I see here, that there are several other things besides dead piles, that have the required attributes to make it a major attraction.
That's whats key. (And for the record- my conclusions are my own -wrong, right, in between...I own em'.) What we are seeking are major attraction points. Because the goal is to find things that are, so to speak, larger than life, or in a coyotes world, some place he cannot help but want to be there.
let me regress a bit- I think there are countless "spots" where when can take coyotes in a given area. Some of those locations are travelways (either used frequently or once in a blue moon), loafing areas, hunting areas, sleeping areas and you could add more.
Now if one trapped those areas, you would not only be at the mercy of the coyotes time frame, but also in many cases working against innate natures insofar as set approachability or even awareness.
but you would take coyotes, and frankly from setting such locations comes the long heard and oft repeated advise- set a lot of traps over a large area and wait.
Now lets look at the major attraction viewpoint. The premise is simply this- something that's a major attraction- the big show- the casino in the middle of pudunkville...will be visited by not only the local coyotes, but by all the coyotes within that areas...advertising range so to speak.
so what are these attractions besides dead piles? What are dead piles? Nothing more than food, and an opportunity for food......and in large (meaning easily obtainable w/o competition or effort) quantities.
What are the attraction points..... when all is said and done the attraction point must only do one thing- attract coyotes, and for the purposes of furthering these discussions it must be such that its going to bring multiple groups of coyotes to it, on a regular basis. The key is knowing where your litters are, where those territories are, etc- and I fail at that because I'm not, for multiple reasons, able to put in the time doing so.
You aren't going to get any better IMO than a dead pig pile. Unfortunately, they are very illegal here for pigs, and while I have some very large pig operations, its all enclosed and no dead pigs.
Next are big dairies- they have a fair bit of regular mortality, calves are born throughout the year and the piles are always added to-
then big beef- less mortality, but some
then just cows in general with manure piles- again, cows mean pastures here, pastures mean opportunities. Big manure piles, with a portion of it dried to dust are very good attractions I feel
Certain types of set asides or rough ground- a study here in my area, part of the collaring study- showed VOLES the #1 food source
That's what I look for, and easy to find. And without a doubt, a big dead pile is my preferred attraction.
but that's the easy part- the hard part is figuring out WHERE are the coyotes coming to that pile stalling out. And knowing that becomes very important if you believe that WHERE the trap is, matters.
I think this: a trap set where a coyote would be preoccupied, or set where he feels uncomfortable is worked by a smaller % of coyotes that pass by it. And many times the % of coyotes that DO work the set is just a fraction of the total coyotes that passed by.
I have come to believe that you MUST work with the natures of coyotes, and that if you do, the % of the coyotes aware of your sets that actually works the set- increase dramatically.
and, to add to it, I believe that in a spot where his natures allow him TO be curious, to be bold, allow him to be kicked back so to speak, that a singular set will appeal to the highest %, the majority of the time- thus big sets, big lures, big baits.
Because of the lay of the land, the way coyotes come into attractions, the way they use the wind (my old style was a set on either side of a lane, or set-aside, etc- figuring wind didn't matter and it didn't in that situation), but now not talking being aware of sets, but approachability.... and points to that somewhere- within say 1/2 a mile more or less...there will be THAT SPOT.
Where it all comes together. They might all come in "randomly' ie travelways.....but somewhere...threes a place....
you could set up and maintain all those travelways (yet research and observation shows me that encountering a trap, is not the same as working that trap) and take a % of those that come by...
or you could go to the coyotes "spot", and catch a higher % quickly
thus my results- I either hit big, or strike out. Over the 3 years of this program, on some 1st year strike outs I hit it over the fence the next year- but I still have others, where I KNOW the coyotes are there- where I miss or take 1 or 2. Its not the fault of the attraction- its my fault cause I cannot put the pieces together...yet.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 4, 2013 10:34:32 GMT -6
all the lurkers-
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Post by thorsmightyhammer on Aug 4, 2013 11:39:02 GMT -6
Sorry bud I added all I could.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 4, 2013 15:17:39 GMT -6
lol....
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Post by trappnman on Aug 6, 2013 6:58:10 GMT -6
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Post by trappnman on Aug 7, 2013 7:05:07 GMT -6
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Post by jim on Aug 7, 2013 11:49:45 GMT -6
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- another boring study that none of you (except bogio) will read-
Yup , you are probably right, I started to read it but a lot of ink and I don't think it is much use to me.
Jim
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Post by trappnman on Aug 7, 2013 13:14:01 GMT -6
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Post by natedawg on Aug 7, 2013 17:03:04 GMT -6
Steve, do you think once you figure out "The Spot", that you will be able to verbalize it to others where a light bulb clicks on and everyone says "duh, why didn't I think of that/set that spot, I know exactly where you are talking about now, etc...."
Do you think you will be able to look at a topographical map in an area you have never been and find "The Spot"?
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Post by braveheart on Aug 8, 2013 4:12:19 GMT -6
The look of the land I trap.I have certain things I look for a live stock area is one and travel lines.Then add the bait to make it better.And don't trap to close together like here about 5-7 mile to keep in different groups.I am not good at explaining only know what I was taught to look for and it works.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 8, 2013 6:21:19 GMT -6
nate, I doubt if I could.
topo maps just show the lay of the land, nothing whats there.
Aerial maps would be a better choice, at least for me, as they show whats there
in new areas, I do it old school by being there and seeing how everything fits together
the key, I feel, is in the research to learn what casues overlap, and how to use that overlap.
the last 2 studies I posted, have some very pertinent info in them concerning "clumping" and "clusters"
well worth reading, and discussing
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Post by primitiveman on Aug 8, 2013 16:47:56 GMT -6
To me, solving the puzzle is the biggest reason I enjoy setting for coyotes...don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading all the posts and opinions; however, figuring it out on my own is what fuels my passion.
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Post by natedawg on Aug 8, 2013 16:55:54 GMT -6
Thanks Marty, I figured it was something you just learn and know, hard to explain to someone.
Sorry Steve, I meant aerial maps instead of topographical maps. Probably get a general idea of where to look and then just have to scout it out to really narrow it down. Look for a major travel lane, even better an intersection of travel lanes, and then finding a focal point/salient feature that will get them to stall out? With that focal point being possibly a deadpile/bait pile, the edge of a brush area to hunt for prey, prairie dog town etc...?
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Post by brentparker on Aug 11, 2013 5:49:26 GMT -6
I have given this "spot" location a lot of thought. being able to set a minimum of traps on key locations or "spots" if you will would save a person a considerable amount of work. I have locations on my line that produce considerable better than others. Are these locations spots? I don't know. But what I have thought, since they were multiple travelways that narrow down through one travel way it had a bottle neck effect. On these locations I have always loaded them heavy with traps. Normally 6 to 8. My doubles and triples are considerable higher in these locations. I am looking harder to find these spots now.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 11, 2013 15:03:16 GMT -6
Just an interesting note- had a reidn over, a non trapping freidn, and was on the phone with someone talking aobut coyotes. I got off the phone, and quickly explained to my freind about innate behaviors, and then about setting travelways and then setting "the spot". He said, (and all this took under a minute)- "so the goal is to set in a spot where the behaviors point you to success, and you are going TO the coyotes, rather than waiting for them to come to you?"
I told him- you nailed it. No prior knowledge, no baggage, no coyote or trapping background and he grasped the concept immediately.
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brent- IMO those locations could well be the stallout locations that are key to concept of the spot- or it could just be a convergence of travelways, thus giving you a bigger pool of coyotes that come by.
Have you read the 2 studies posted last? If not, you might take a look at them.
clusters and clumping is discussed, and some interesting meake me think points
to sum up a multitude of posts and threads- what I am looking for in the spot is threefold ( in no order)-
1) overlapping territories (increases the potential pool of coyotes available) 2) a place where the innate behaviors allow success (reactions to stimuli, behavorial traits such as caution, stalling out, inclination to WORK a set) 3) a set that MAKES them work it how you want (coyotes still ain't foxes)
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Post by Nick C on Aug 11, 2013 20:33:55 GMT -6
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Post by trappnman on Aug 12, 2013 15:42:51 GMT -6
My last reply btw, was not to indicate anyone was ignornat by not knowing how to find the spot, or in any event no more ignorant than I- the point was the CONCEPT is easily understood, if preconceived notions are done away with.
two things watchign Buddy today-
a friend stopped over, who had a black lab he would bring over to play with Buddy. His dog died in January. Buddy went running up to him, wagging his tail- then ran to the truck, whining and tail wagging, feet on truck- looking for that other dog- now, he has done this to no other truck- but thats been 8 months.....so don't tell me, canines don't have good memories
and then this afternoon, we were in a field and 2 deer came out of the corn maybe 1/2 mile away. Let Buddy out, and his nose went up in the air, and he was on his way to those two deer. no hesitation, no messing around- nose up in the wind and off he went.
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