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Post by bobwendt on Jul 10, 2010 4:29:46 GMT -6
you missed the point, touched on it in peg legged coyotes. those could have been releases. how many peg leg cats you ever see? probably none as a dead foot kills a cat, they aren`t the tough guy as a coyote is, if released. almost every cat anyone relesesd dies if pasat the 24 or in overpowered 4 coils. everything pegs on 48 or more in those overpowered sob`s. states have laws limiting jawspread but none on power. now that is a joke. comparing testing safety of helmets and a bogus bmp with no ck times even factored in is a joke too. so a bmp is to fool an uneducated publc, kind of a scam to make everything look ok. well, gee, that was a costly deal wasn`t it. what if they find out the truth?
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Post by trappnman on Jul 10, 2010 7:55:36 GMT -6
TC you are jumping all around as for your reasons for favoring bmps. First it was for trappers knowledge, and finally having standardized traps, now its for public perception.
If I where to look at my sterlings by 8am every day like gospel I could release many of them and they would be fine.
Is the opposite then true? - you leave them in 2 days, and their feet are liverwurst?
you can bs all you want on unmodifed smaller traps, but the FACT is that 30 some that were posted, all showed NO foot damage- and as stated before, they were released throughht the day- NOT at dawn.
Bob your going to find more peg legged coyotes running about with those caught in equipment less than ideal correct?
I doubt it- I think traps are the LAST reason we have peg legged coyotes.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 10, 2010 8:37:08 GMT -6
rear pegs ,always at the hock- not the foot, are fence hungs. they run ~10% of aged coyotes in indiana where we have 54" woven fence and 2 strands of barb at the top. our coyotes rarely dig under, they jump over like a deer and some apparently power off the top wire, or rear foot slips betwen 2 top wires, end up like deer and anyelope in the west. we`ve all seen the mummified carcases hanging there upside down of fence hung ungulates. well the coyote wrings off the fence wire and lives. tough son of a guns! front pegs are newbie uses a 12" stake for the most part, or an old out of state of the art overpowered trap without the lams. tman, remember those traps I bought from you, the #4 coil victor 4`s, gwrald had laminated for me, with just the 2 springs that came stock. run every day, I had one real bad experience, mm, bad as it gets. a front foot catch. no tangling, no mound, just dry sand. but pronbably 5-600 good one in the duration of ownership in those traps. the norm? no, the numbers say not. but bad things can happen even when everything done right, rarely. perfect catch right above the big pad too. the 1-2-3 toes gone., likely all those are trap related. problem is there are a lot of guys trapping that need to take trapper ed course first. here is true story. I`m trapping on this rancher in ks. . he says if you find a coyote with a #4 double long on a foot, it`s my trap. I says ok, what area and when? he says with a strand of wire he wired a trap to a dead cows leg and next day all tore up coyote sign everywhere and trap gone. now the kicker. he says this was 3 YEARS AGO! lol, now that is the kind of guy causing front pegs. that and coyote in a fox trap with too short a stake. bmp should also include something to guarantee no stake pulling or rerasonable tie down system. to measure just he trap and not chain or staking or ck times is not a bmp at all. bmp is BEST MANAGEMENT PRACTICE. hopw can it be best if not all factors factored in, including trapper skill and the other things I alluded to? and of course many of those things can not be measured.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 10, 2010 8:52:48 GMT -6
Bob and Tman you both argue for the sake of it so what is the point? (edited- out of line, no more) The proof is there for modified traps yet you stick your head in the sand? Bob many could be released? Who wants to release a coyote Bob, those running extended checks?? No one and no one has a reason to do so. So what is the point? Liverwurst NO how many pictures you need to see. Extended checks are not for livemarket it is for dead coyotes period. The reason for modified traps is to hold them for longer periods in a way that limits damage and keeps them in the trap period. No one is settting 80-100 coyotes traps in western states on 48 or 72 checks to go there on day 2-3 and say Bye MR coyote, no logic there. Modifed traps hold them so they are there in far better shape than unmodified traps on extended checks in all kinds of weather and soil conditions. small chains and weak traps lead to more damage as you add time try it so you can see for yourself. Don't beleive me just do it Like Nike says. Then show me the pics and we shall compair unmodifide versus modified and also efficancty and escape from those traps compaired to modified traps. Tman NO BS you look right past it all, many more traps fair better on a 24 hr check!!!!! I have no argument with that with damage, it is longer periods that some of those cause more damage that has been proven by many trappers and the very reason for modifications!!!! I think at times I talk to the wall. Some one please tell me why modifcations where made to traps in the 70's, 80's 90's and today? ? Don't give me to trap trappers give me detailed answers. The number of peg legs have dropped off alot far more commin years ago, as trappers have switched traps, added more swivels, better staking systems and more knowledge all add up to less of them running about. Tman the main iussue for BMP's all wraps up into public perception !!!!! All the rest is a direct result of it all!!!!!!! You get trappers with more knowledge starting out the public likes that! No different than hunter saftey!!!! YOu get more informed wildlife personnel they use that with the public!!!!!! YOu get traps to pass standards again the public likes that!!!!! You get a a cross section of professionals to agree on those standards not just all trappers the public likes that!!!!!! So all over the place? I think not. Like it or not the general public holds the strings to trapping and trappers futures, you inform them, educate them, along with the wildlife personnel whi have the authority to make rule and reg changes, and things for trappers are far,far, better in the public domain since inception of the BMP"s. Bob you can believe there bogus doesn;'t change facts, they have helped and you can sit on the sidelines throwing stones all you want. BMP's will be a help to keep trapping and to help restore trapping in some areas in the future. Again BOB your the foot expert so tell me how after the foot was looked at did many of those modified traps score well and also one of them had the best score period on coyotes. The point is this on 24 hr checks modified traps aren;t as crucial and either are shock springs, will they add some to the catch in the end yes they will. Free world use what you want many will stick to modified traps becuase of the advanatges they offer. Those advanatges are multiplied when working different weather and longer check times those are facts.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 10, 2010 9:10:53 GMT -6
lets see- you continue to argue coon bmps, 1.75, ets with no practical experience, and we like to argue? look in the mirror my friend.......... when you make absolute statements based on opinion, expect a debate........ Tman NO BS you look right past it all, many more traps fair better on a 24 hr check!!!!! I have no argument with that with damage, it is longer periods that some of those cause more damage that has been proven by many trappers and the very reason for modifications!!!! I think at times I talk to the wall.
have I said different? no- I understand apples are red, oranges aren't....... Tman the main iussue for BMP's all wraps up into public perception !!!!! All the rest is a direct result of it all!!!!!!! You get trappers with more knowledge starting out the public likes that! No different than hunter saftey!!!! YOu get more informed wildlife personnel they use that with the public!!!!!! YOu get traps to pass standards again the public likes that!!!!! You get a a cross section of professionals to agree on those standards not just all trappers the public likes that!!!!!!
heres where that opinion comes in- 99.99999999999999999% of the public, at a conservative estimate, has never heard of bmps and never will. as far as "professionals"- thats a matter of opinion- I see no prefessionalism in the coon protoval, instead I see a very vested and myopic study. So all over the place? I think not. Like it or not the general public holds the strings to trapping and trappers futures, you inform them, educate them, along with the wildlife personnel whi have the authority to make rule and reg changes, and things for trappers are far,far, better in the public domain since inception of the BMP"s.
and we will all have candy coated mountains and milkshake streams- lots of pie in the sky hopes, doesn't make it true or fact. shocksprings will add to the catch on small traps? how would you know? You USE small traps?
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 10, 2010 9:28:28 GMT -6
tc, don`t put words in my mouth that I never said. you keep talking about bmps on 24s. so are bmps worthless if anything but a 24? well duh, sure they are. or they would have run the same identical testing on 48s, 72s weekly etc. why didn`t they? again, well duh. because 100% of all traps would fail. yet you insist on 48s to 72s, the guy in montana likes weekly. so how are your precious bmps gpoing to save your 48 to weeklys? and I think that is all you really care about,not having to ck your traps regular like the rest of the trapping world does. and as you said in your above post, just maki8ng sure he is till there, no care at all about his welfare, just is he there. you know 1080 poison guarantees they are all there too. so by bmp standards 1080 beats any trap. and rightly so. but the bmp for poison isn`t even legal. so much for bmp`s. tell you what, whenany of the tates that have lost trapping get it back because of bmp`s I`ll buy ytou a steak dinner, and me too, great big tbones! if anything gets it back it will be beavers over populating or coyotres eating kids. and then they will MAKE the trappers use bmps, not the other way around.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 10, 2010 9:30:40 GMT -6
good point- WHY weren't bmps done on 48, 72, week check dates?
Bob is exactly right- very few if any traps, would have passed.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 10, 2010 9:34:56 GMT -6
-Tman you can either be a part of promotion and education of the general public or not, that choice is up to each of us. The point remains the BMPs are here and will help the overall view of trapping and have and I will find out to see how many people have looked at the info on the IAFWA, not to mention how many BMP hard copies have been given out as well. I will report the numbers if/when I receive them.
Tman please read what I have wrote on shock springs on short chained setups and small traps, there is no point to a shock spring if you are using 6-8" of chain. No matter the trap.
Extended check trappers are not setting 1.75's and 2's un modified and they aren't using 6-10" of chain either for the largest majority.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 10, 2010 9:43:16 GMT -6
and they aren`t following the 24 hr bmp protocal either. why not if they (bmps)are so good?
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 10, 2010 9:53:51 GMT -6
BMP's once again (sigh) Bob are guidlines and not mandates, state control is very important each state has the right to manage wildlife for the benifit of those that live in that state. Otherwise we would all have the same season dates and harvest takes. Widlife ebbs and flows state to state and even region to region in many states, have the latitiude to make changes on the fly is important to wildlife management that even includes trapping Bob.
The majority of our residents don't have a problem with our check laws otherwise changes would be made if the loudest voice would succeed. There would be plenty of opposition to this and in fact many where responsible foe getting the trap check here extended not shortened years back. East river has 48 and west river has 72 it wasn't always that way.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 10, 2010 10:04:51 GMT -6
but you extol the virtues of bmp`s, so why would you not follow the guidelines they were run under( 24s) ? either bmps are so good you would follow them, or you don`t really believe in them anymore than some of us. and you are not doing 24`s ,as the bmps were run under, so that leaves the other explanation. or do bmps not apply to you, just us? sounding kind of government-ee to me. do as you say but not as you do. hmmmm. me personally, I just can`t take you serious if you talk the talk but don`t walk the walk. don`t sigh, it is what it is.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 10, 2010 10:14:22 GMT -6
Bob how do you rationalise things? ? If I lived in a state with a 24 hr check I would follow those rules and regs, they are put there for reasons in those areas. Why do you think there was a West and East Coyote BMP? If one would trap on states where extended checks are legal then one could find the traps to best suit those needs in the BMP"s as well. There where many modified traps that passed. So you have a guidline to go from in these areas as well. The BMPs are not mandated but guidlines once again, many experianced trappers already know what the BMP's have shown. The trap guidlines will help new and less experianced trappers, all the rest that the BMP's encompassess helps all trappers from 4 -104!!!!!!! In the area of public relations, public education and wildlife porfessional education. Also to show that trapping is a legimate means of population control of species. Bob you need to see the data on hunters,trappers and how we are aging as a class of sportsman it is getting really scary and the strength in numbers will soon be gone, so we need to educate and inform to see the future of trapping continue. It will be others than a small group of those involved that will help see these endevours continue into the future!!!! That is not an opinion. Look at the numbers and look at what some that are forward thinking are trying to do to help promote the future as the numbers continue to decline. Done on this as your spinning in circles and have nothing new to offer. Just look at the data Bob and a get a human relations specialist on your game staff!!!!! They are a real asset to game depts and the future for kids and grandkids!!!!!!
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Post by trappnman on Jul 10, 2010 10:36:04 GMT -6
so was the western coyote bmps, run under 48, 72 hr, etc checks/
if not, Bob has a very valid point-
TC, you cannot take a fact, then add speculation to it, and call both facts. Which is what you have been doing from the get go.
but i'll play it as well- the sun rises in the east, therefore bmps are worthless.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 10, 2010 10:48:12 GMT -6
OK you will benefit from something you think worthless I get it. No all 24 hr because then you would have needed a new protocol Tman not that hard to understand. You remember the dreaded coon BMP's .
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 10, 2010 20:46:30 GMT -6
new protocal? hardly, everything is the same except traps are cked at 72 hrs, as apparently most everyone does in 72 hr states. and then you could use all those 72 hr results to get all the 24 hr states to switch back to 72`s. that is your hypothesis of what bmps will do for eveyone. well, isn`t it? at the minimium a 24 hr bmp is totally worthless in any situation except the 24 hr ck, as that is when the bmp cks were done, in 24 hrs. what`s so hard to see about that?
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Post by Rally Hess on Jul 13, 2010 21:55:31 GMT -6
I see both good and bad in the BMP. I know for a fact the BMP has been used in some states that didn't have snaring, because they called me and both asked for recomendations and info on how to get copies of the data from the snare BMP. I'm sure Mo., Pa., and Tn. all realized some benefit from the data collected. I'm also pretty sure at least two other states have used the data in making a case for snares, and their cases are "still pending" so to speak. Whether we agree with the findings or the process, it has opened the doors, when there was no other published data on these devices (cable retraints), and already at least two states have expanded on the results (B/A ratings) from what they started with. The BMP's didn't invent the wheel, but have smoothed it out some, politically speaking. One point that seems to get overlooked in alot of discussions on the BMP's, is they, like the new Az. immigration law, have brought trapping to the forefront, mainly our equipment, but also that we are still out there. How many times have you had someone say, "there are still people trapping". Like TC39 mentioned, the non-consumtive crowd is not going to change their campaign, but the general public, who both vote and consume our product, at least have something to look at, that wasn't produced by Disney. My biggest concern with the BMP's is that when the money runs out, and the testing stops, we may be stuck with what was tested, good or bad. I don't believe the states will do their own testing on a piece of new equipment, to justify it's use out of their own pocket, but I believe, will use the data produced and the traps tested as guidlines for making laws. I know it is stated to be a "living document", and could be added to with more testing, but I've been around some government programs, and when the money runs out the programs end, good bad or otherwise. If the program ends in a couple years, like I'm guessing it will, there has been very little tested, of just what we are using today, and none of what we could be manufacturing in the future. If states use the BMP's as published to form their state regulations, we will be a stagnet industry, with no reason to produce a new product, unless, as a manufacturer you are willing to pay for the testing, with the launch of a new product. I assure you there is not that kind of profit in this industry.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 14, 2010 13:10:42 GMT -6
Rally good points but I don't forsee the "need" to worry about testing every product as for now and in many states they won't use the BMP's as law but more for guidlines. Some states may inact them but the alternative could be zero trapping/zero snaring in these areas as well.
It could come down to funding if this issue dies down with the EU crowd and "IF" they are satisifed with the testing done and bigger issues such as the world economy , sure the program could loose funding, but IAFWA has been a major player in this and I'm sure funding could be found from various means, if the trapping community deems it as something they would like to continue both from the manufacture side and the consumer side, those with the loudest voice get heard the most often.
I think we have had a great start to combat the EU and also give trappers and trapping some excellent PR to the general public, it is up to all of us to keep the ball rolling. That is why states have taken part in the process.
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Post by musher on Jul 14, 2010 13:46:04 GMT -6
You are not going to "combat" the EU and win. This has nothing to do with logic. They want to sell their ranch fur and forbid our wild fur.
The Canadian seal hunt says it all. Kiss the EU ass and all they do is force you to pucker up again.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 14, 2010 14:01:08 GMT -6
Musher there are ways to keep our fur market open with out all the puckering, as some of those very countries are following the BMP process we have setup, so there fore they have to be careful they don't bite their own hands off and get into trade policy issues know that the process has started for north america and some of their own land holdings as far as BMP's are concerned.
I hear what your saying, there will always be the part that will fight for the benefit of the ranch fur, but they also need to be careful on the approach and implamentation of rules and regs when it comes to international trade, another key point to the BMP's.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 14, 2010 14:31:40 GMT -6
ummm, anyone cked the fur market lately? what market? what good is it to keep it open when it doesn`t exist in a way that meets the cost to produce? oh, going to get better at some point in the future. h huh. well I was wondering, when might that be? in the meantime what am I to do with the mountains of fur piling up?
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