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Post by thebeav2 on Jul 8, 2010 6:19:48 GMT -6
Bob Is 1000% correct when talking about extended checks and Unseen foot damage. And In freezing weather It happens with In hours of the animal being caught. And trap brand and mods won't make any difference.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 8, 2010 6:43:10 GMT -6
TC, you state a coyote fighhts longer and harder, every minute he is in the trap- yo uhave stated several times, that he fights hardest the 2nd, 3rd day. IF that is true, which I don't believe, then there is NO WAY you could ever extrapolate the 24 hr bmp results into extended check results.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 8, 2010 12:23:40 GMT -6
Bob, I stand by my statement that on extended checks and testing of damage some traps would have a far better score than others. I have shown plenty of photos of coyotes on extended checks, does that mean they are releaseable back into the wild? Would depend on many facotrs temps, what part of the foot caught, how much effort put into escaping etc. The bmps are looking at the damage caused at time of death not "if" they could be released or not with no injury. That is why it is a scale, not just pass/fail accumlative scoring system. Tman please show me where my words are stated as you wrote: state a coyote fighhts longer and harder, every minute he is in the trap- yo uhave stated several times, that he fights hardest the 2nd, 3rd day. What I do say is a coyote will fight beyond the first few hrs of intial catch in the trap, this is a fact, not an opinion. I have seen plenty of catch circles of coyotes on a 24,48 and 72 hr check I have lived and trapped under all 3 check laws. Some coyotes fight harder than others, many factors come into play ate these coyotes being held out in the wide open, in a low spot with cover, did a vehicle, tractor or 4 wheeler come by in close proximity, what is the weather like, do they have a litter of pups some where, are there alrgr predators to prey on those coyotes in the area, all factor into how hard they fight a trap. The entire reasons trappers have evloved equipment thru the years the high majority have come from people that have worked under extended check times past 24 hrs, the value has been shown to them and those that have used this modified equipment, if it was all the same then why bother with improvments and advancements in traps? The goal is knowing your keeping them detained longer to do it it the best way possible with the best equipment possible. We all know of the issues with standard traps and some modeal that where thought to be coyote worthy on extended checks some have been shown not to be the ideal trap for adverse conditions, extended checks and all the rest of the factors. The equipment was designed for longer time to restrain the animal and to hold it in good condition which lessens escape. Tman if we can't extrapolate out the data,then why do some traps have better scores than others when all things are the same? The bridger candian jaw had the best scores in both efficantcy and damage to coyotes of any tested, the sterling ranked very high on the western coyote BMP as well. So if it is your belief that the coyote fights hard for the first few hrs and then not after that fact, how come so different in scoring of traps? I mean really the BMP's have proven what many that have thought out and designed traps for animal comfort have knwon for along time, thick jaws, good offsets and good swiveling and springs to hold= high catch efficantcy under all weather conditions and very good injury scores. In order to see the true value of these traps they would all have to be tested on longer checks and then score them on that as the changing factor, the point would be mute as it would be limited in scale to the majority of states with 24 hr check laws, so really what is the need in such? Domestics are an issue in many states for check times, but doemstics aren't an issue when it comes to many of the modified traps and there use on a 24 hr check. Beav what else would any trapper be doing trapping in freezing weather besides fur trapping?
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 8, 2010 13:16:53 GMT -6
release/damage degree? it would depend on how long he has been in the trap. the longer he is in ,the worse everything gets. the rest of that paragraghs long post is moot if one does not accept that premise. you talk about common sense, hmmmm.......
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 8, 2010 13:22:53 GMT -6
Bob that damage will very with trap selection no matter the time in the trap. Time by itself is not the factor to damage, it has to do with the trap!!!!! Or how did some traps fair better than others in the BMP's ?
Say I set a 3 victor round jaw offset with twin loop chain and all stock the animals fights binds up the swivels and has foot movement between the jaws in 24 hrs of time or say I set a sterling with thivker jaws, much wider offset, far better swivels and no footment from the same fight from the animals in 24 hrs, the vet looks at the damage and scores both traps the sterling ends up with a better score all in 24 hr checks times, then the trap made the differance in the final score did it not Bob? The only answer is of course it did.
The thing to look at would be if we moved the time to say 48hrs would it be 2 x's as bad, 3x;s as bad or would some traps show a 20% differance in damage and some 60% worse damage, it would still be all about the trap correct?
One of the worst things for a trap I have seen with coyotes is bound up/frozen swivels and chain, that will add a ton to the damage one sees for sure. Next would be skin cutting from over powered or under powered traps with thin sharp jaws.
IMO you control these 2 and your winning the damage battle in a big way.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 8, 2010 14:17:04 GMT -6
time in the trap is #1 factor of damage degree, assuming the same trap, no matter what trap design size chain length or strength. you tell `em whatever. I`m done.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 8, 2010 14:19:16 GMT -6
one last point, without you know if the coyote got caught at 8 in the evening, midnight, or an hour before you got there, you know nothing and the bmp is meaningless. and if you cked at daylight or high noon. time in trap!
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 8, 2010 19:51:32 GMT -6
Bob you can offset and slow damage by making modifications to the trap. That is the reason to modify traps is it not!!!!!!!!!
Self inflicted damage would rank up there to Bob would it not? I mean a spastic coyote versus a more timid one. Time is a factor, but you can over come "some" of that with modification.
The BMP is not meaningless, all traps need to be checked by a certain time of the day. They go off the results and give the trap a score. You think because a coyote sits 3 hours longer in trap A versus trap B it would be enough to pull the score so low it would fall from the approved list??? If it does then it made it by the skin of it's teeth anyway. But all it has to do is make the list with a score that gets it there.
All foot traps get the same chain,same shock spring, same anchoring method and checked by a set time frame. Over many critters it will average itself out in the testing. Also you take a measurement of width between the jaws with the coyotes foot in each trap, I would suspect they used that data as a means to tell how long the critter was caught as well. MM was measured and recorded. More time would indicate more compression, or with good offsets and thick jaws some could have faired better with less compression. I should see if I still have a copy of that data.
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Post by mickm on Jul 8, 2010 19:59:46 GMT -6
The point you are consistent on TC, is that if folks don't use totally tricked out traps they are wrong.
Thats the point that I think most folks have issue with.
What you use works outstanding for you, but for 90% of the trappers out there it just ain't necessary.
and
In fact may be less then ideal for their uses.
It just makes good, common sense that a coyote that is the the trap -12 hours, is going to have better feet (on average) the one in a trap for 48+. Taking for granted weather conditions are similar.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 8, 2010 20:14:25 GMT -6
No your not wrong at all, trap with what ever you feel you need to!!!!! But to say modiffied traps don't have seeable advantages over standard factory traps is wrong IMO.
I have had a few people PM me mick who switched to using sterlings traps and said thank you for explaining the benefits I see it now and yes many of these guys are 24 hr check trappers.
If you don't or anyone else don;t want to use high end or modified traps knock your selves out and good trapping to ya, for those that trap on longer checks, worse weather conditions or just want traps with very high efficantcy then make a switch be it high end, seld modified what ever.
Mick keep doing what works for ya brother and many others will do the same!!!!!!
I have plenty of pics that if I told you to tell me what are 24 checks and what is 48 or longer you would be hard pressed to tell the differance from the photo. What do you think the point of larger offsets/wider jaws are for then if not to reduce foot damage?
I make my statments as someone who has trapped coyotes under 3 different set of rules and regs 24,48 and 72 hr check laws and I have seen the results from many trap types, when I trapped in Iowa and if I ever went back to a 24 hr check I'm not selling my sterling,jakes or other modified traps.
You can choose to use the information or not. I tell it like I have seen it, no need to be nothing more than honest about it.
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Post by mickm on Jul 8, 2010 20:34:57 GMT -6
Well, ya kinda summed it up in the first sentence. IMO! I'll be honest, I don't know. I was under the impression the purpose of any trap is to hold critters. I can also see bob and beav's reasoning that , just because the eye can not see it, does not mean that there isn't damage that will show up eventually. I have never trapped for live catch, I will take their word on it. It makes a lot of sense to me that the longer a foot is in a trap, the more risk of damage. I would think that holds especially true in freezing temps. As far as why I thought the big offsets and laminates were for? Why to trap trappers, of course! I don't honestly know, because I have never found either necessary. I have held coyotes fine since I went to short chains. Sometimes I wonder why folks have so much trouble holding coyotes.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 8, 2010 20:44:21 GMT -6
Good answers Mick concise and to the point!!!!!! LOL.
I
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Post by trappnman on Jul 9, 2010 7:01:12 GMT -6
using 1.75 traps that I collared coyotes with, eventual posting showed ZERO lasting foot damage. thats a fact, not an opinion. in fact, the people responsible for the study, were amazed at that, and made this a top speaking point of the study when talking ot other wildlife groups.
But to say modiffied traps don't have seeable advantages over standard factory traps is wrong IMO.
obviously no seeable advantages in our study. and thats fact, not opinion.
lets not make one size fit all- despite all the talk about trappers thinking outside the box, they seldom do.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 9, 2010 7:12:37 GMT -6
tman, the key to no damage, you ran them every day at first light or shortly there after. why time in trap is so hard for some to grasp is beyond me.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 9, 2010 7:16:10 GMT -6
I don't find that hard to grasp at all- I thought that what I posted fit that thought nicely
all were collared between 8AM and 2 PM- trapline run
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 9, 2010 12:27:10 GMT -6
You guys are speaking in terms that benefit you, I didn't say the seeable advantages are strictly in form of relase did I? The advanatges are in holding and efficantcy. I don't release coyotes, I have never in my life live marketed a coyote, there have been tagging projects done with modified traps and those coyotes have done just fine and even better in some cases. Live market and dead coyotes are 2 totally different ends of trapping period. If I where to look at my sterlings by 8am every day like gospel I could release many of them and they would be fine. I have caught dogs in these and not a single one has ever lost a foot or had long term injury period. This was on 24 hr checks where dogs where alot larger problem. If your running your entire line by 8am each and every day and those coyotes are there for a matter of a few hours and you double stake everything then those people won't see much of an advantage with modified traps, each to his own what they want to spend on traps. Condiitons, weather, timing and check times all play a role into trap selection. Bob I don't call past noon shortly there after. Then tman if modifed traps have no advantage why did you make the switch? Some traps have better quailitys than others and have more safe guards built into them for the trapper and the critter. Again I will ask why did modifications come about if they have NO value? Please explain in detail. again those that have every trap checked by 8am or shortly there after won't see the benefits of modified traps to the critter, except for efficantcy relating to many factors. Remember the bridger modified trap had a 100% efficantcy rating on a 24hr check No other trap had that. What is the reason for this?
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Post by mickm on Jul 9, 2010 17:21:36 GMT -6
I'm not speaking for Steve, but I know that I have read that he switched to bigger traps because they bed quicker.
Or at least that was one of his reasons.
I don't think he uses modified now, but I'm over stepping.
I think what everyone is missing is that we can present our sides, and let other folks do what they want.
None of this is fact, despite what we all say.
Anytime you are dealing with animals, you can only speak in general terms!
As in" I have found this to be generally true".
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 9, 2010 18:12:16 GMT -6
you could not release any or very few animals out of over powered 4 coils unless they were in a very short time. the old time in trap deal again. the damage is at the cellular level, tissue necrosis from crushing and lack of circulation, i.e. soft tissue crushing, the foot is dead. this IS a fact . can`t argue exact science. tc admits he has never kept a `live animal, so he has no clue what that foot does at a later date. beav knows, as does anyone ever done it. and tc, please, we don`t get paid either if he isn`t there when we get there, so get off this not holding them stuff. going back to your virtues you extoll of extended cks, why do you run your domestic dog areas on 24s? well, duh....... because you know what that dogs foot is in 48-72 or longer hrs. it`s cold toast. a cold balloon and weeping fluid as the tissue has no integrity left, i.e. dead, starting rot at the cellular level from crushing damage and no blood supply. run your bmp`s on 72`s and tell me how many traps pass. or I`ll tell you, a big fat zero. so any bmp results are meaningless without ck times also advised as a "BMP". and that bmp is daily, preferably as early after light as possible.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 9, 2010 18:15:47 GMT -6
another thought, I hear "what difference does it make if we kill him anyway?" let me throw it back at you, why have any bmp`s if he ends up dead anyway? well? why? is it for public perception only? it`s ok if you tell me that, but don`t spin any other foo fa rah about the value of bmp`s. withoutall the factors included, like a ck time, then any bmp has no meaning. you can`t test something without you know what you are testing.
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jul 9, 2010 21:04:23 GMT -6
Bob the BMPs are just that, who ever said different, they are for the court of public opinion based on trapping. You have international standards on many things, bicycle helmets, sporting equipment many things for the benefit of the public to know what they are getting is a tested and proven product for safety.
Traps are no different and offers trappers old and new a choice of pre approved traps. It is something the common guy can grasp and feel better about and that does help trapping. You can use them in a court of law to back up the case that traps can be used with animal welfare in mind. You get a cross section of people that have signed off on and approved of these devices again that helps trappers and trapping as awhole.
Bob my 24hr checks where in states that had such and the reason for them was largely in part to domestics and public perception, that is what trappers have fought for many,many years correct?
Bob just because a trap has more power that in itself means little, other factors are how wide is the offset of the jaw? Is there an offset? Is the jaw a cut out sharp edged jaw? Or a thicker rounded or smooth jaw face?
Bob my experiance has been with domestics and how they where found after the catch. Bob your going to find more peg legged coyotes running about with those caught in equipment less than ideal correct? Meaning frozen up swivels, lack of swivels, poorly staked traps, poor j hooks. Your not going to find pegs running around because they where caught in a sterling,jake or other modified trap unless the staking system fails, other wise they are there for the trapper.
Public perception is what does that trapped animal look like from the outside, not many care about what does the inside look like a week later. Sorry that is a fact. Many people eat beef,pork and poultry, they care about how was the animal treated up until death, not what happens after that. They are eating the what happens after that, or wearing the fur or have it hangin on the wall, or stopped the predator from eating livestock and wildlife. Or sold to a poen for dogs to chase after them, what ever the point be, that is human nature. The rest are all 100% zero consumption in any shape or form and those people your never going to sway reguardless, they are against consumption of any kind. WE want to work with the common guy and get them on the side of consumption while keeping in mind the welfare of the animal until consumption takes place.
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