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Post by furman on Sept 24, 2009 15:49:12 GMT -6
Here my situation I’m getting back into coon hunting and I have a buddy that has one of the best Black & Tans that I have ever seen. He had his female bred to Dueling Dan (the top reproducing black & tan male) I got one of the pups and she’s turning out to be a dud I can’t get the switch flipped in her head to get after coon. She doesn’t have anything to do with them… It’s got to the point where I am going to get rid of her. Well i got to thinking would it be wrong to breed her even tho she a dud. The breeding behind her is fantastic and I love her mom. Should I or shouldn’t I
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Post by furman on Sept 24, 2009 16:15:18 GMT -6
I should also say that I’ll keep all of the pups and finish them out. I don’t what to try to hunt down pups here and there…… also I like the breeding behind the female
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Post by robertw on Sept 24, 2009 22:41:14 GMT -6
Has this female been hunted hard and if so for how long?
Some of the best dogs I was ever around were some of the slowest to learn to hunt. When I was a kid my brother hunted a male Walker for almost two years before it "clicked" for that dog, then suddenly that dog was trteeing on its own and turned out to be one EXCEPTIONAL hound. This dog probably had 250 -300 coons dropped out to it before it "clicked".
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Post by furman on Sept 25, 2009 5:10:55 GMT -6
She’s been hunted quite a bit when out on a hunt just hangs around but won’t go to the tree and she was gun shy. But I got her over the gun shy deal. I have worked with her on a caged coon and she has nothing to do with it one day the coon bit her in the ass and did nothing except to find a way to get away.
There is four in her litter…three of them are pretty much finished and doing real well expect her
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Post by trappnman on Sept 25, 2009 7:47:29 GMT -6
the old saying in breeding dogs is this- I'd rather breed a bitch with an exceptional background, than an exceptional individual with a poor background.
Robert is right- sometimes it takes a long time for that switch to occur. Sounds to me like she was "intimidated" while hunting with othes (perhaps part of the shyness), not by anything overt perhaps, but nevertheless.
is she interested in using her nose on anything? even a treat trail?
one old trick was to start coon hounds on squirrells- you might try that- lots of site chases sometimes makes things click-
but on to your question- if the parents/grandparents are exceptional, and her littermates are as well- breed her without hesitation.
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Post by furman on Sept 25, 2009 10:01:00 GMT -6
It’s easy to become impatient on a dog I’ll keep taking her out with the older dogs and see what comes of it. I never done the trail and treat thing maybe I’ll work with on that. I do see her use her nose….just not on a coon.
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Post by garman on Sept 25, 2009 16:36:10 GMT -6
how old is she furman
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Post by rockcreekcurs on Sept 25, 2009 16:49:21 GMT -6
I wouldn't.
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Post by furman on Sept 25, 2009 18:52:26 GMT -6
She 1 ½ year old garman I was taking to the fellow that own my females mother and he was thinking to hang on and keep working her …he was saying the grandma to my dog didn’t get started until 2 years old. And that dog (grandma to my female) is the top reproducing Black & tan female of all time
Rockcreekcurss I see that you wouldn’t breed her…what your thinking
I just pick up a cur-plot cross pup ( 7 weeks old) I don’t know why but for some reason this pup caught my eye and I got her. I don’t know much about curs or plots but I do know one guy that says he’ll never hunt anything other than a cur….
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Post by rockcreekcurs on Sept 25, 2009 19:21:05 GMT -6
It's hard enough to get good pups when you start out using exceptional individuals.
Breeding dogs based on pedigree, or what they go back to, without performance first and foremost is an excersize in futilty most times.
Bullets are cheap and so are hound pups. If she's already a year and a half old and not doing anything, chances are good that she never will.
I would cut my losses, get a new pup (or dog) and get after it.
Take care.
Mason
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Post by CrossJ on Sept 25, 2009 22:14:52 GMT -6
Mason! Damn your hard to get ahold of. LOL
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Post by irnhdmike on Sept 27, 2009 8:21:44 GMT -6
Not that long ago most wouldn't even think of trying to start a dog under 2 yrs or so. Modern dogs of all types are better than their ancestors and many now are doing great work at a very early age. It's your call. Keep her and she very well could work out or maybe not. Theres a lot of good ones out there that you will now real soon what you've got . I wouldn't fool with a slow starter unless it showed me something I really like. I would'nt breed to dog that doesn't work out in hopes that the offspring would not be like their mother. Your call
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Post by trappnman on Sept 27, 2009 14:37:36 GMT -6
I disagree 100%
Im not talking breeding pedigree if you mean awards- Im talking breeding pedigree based on ability.
sure, everyone would like to breed exceptional hounds to exceptional hounds- but I've judged 1000s of hounds, and owned hundreds and bred countless litters of pups, and I've seen a handful of exceptional hounds. And I bet thats your case as well.
to breed consistentcy, you need the strain to be set- and the only way to do that, is to have 3-4 generations of good hounds having input- back further than that and not worth mentioning- those sport hounds go back to further generations.
so a hound out of an excetional background, that is sound in body, sound in disposition, and only lacks one factor- would be, based on my experiences and on that of my friends, some of who have breed literally Fd Chs into the hundreds- that breeding such a hound would have a very high chance, as good as the chance of an exceptional bitch producing the same quality in the pups. Fd Chs beyond number, have been whelped by "brood bitches"- breed her to a GOOD male of close breeding- mayber back to a good uncle, or no further than a 1st cousin- that will intensify the good traits of that linage-
Jeff- you know a lot about fox and mink genetics- same principles apply-
line breed, start those pups- if you are pleased with her line, you will be pleased with them-
plus whos saying she is lacking forever? - I've owned a Fd Ch that wouldn't start until over 2- not all that uncommon-
bitches can act goofy much of the time until adult-shes not an adult quite yet- put her up some, get her on squirrlls solo- if not, enjoy her pups.
my 2 cents worth, take it as you will...... -----------------
mike, the point wasn't the mother- it was "the breeding behind her" which I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that it meant at least 3 generations
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Post by rockcreekcurs on Sept 27, 2009 23:59:33 GMT -6
sure, everyone would like to breed exceptional hounds to exceptional houndsso a hound out of an excetional background, that is sound in body, sound in disposition, and only lacks one factor- would be So do it! Don't settle for less than the best. The pedigree does not make the dog, the dog makes the pedigree. Therefore if the dog won't hunt, the pedigree is useless.If that factor the dog lacked was the "Hunt"... that dog would be DEAD at my house!I believe in breeding the best to the best within your preffered breed and line. No compensation breedings, no breeding dogs that are not proven and certainly no breeding for "Fancy" papers(My dogs are not papered, but we have kept great records of lineage ourselves). It's an easy concept and one that works way more than it doesn't. Like simply begets like. If that dog won't hunt, her pups PROBABLY won't either. If some do, I would bet it wouldn't be up to par of what it could be using more sound principles. Here is a pic of my Gus pup. He's 3 months old in this pic. I don't claim to have the best dogs in the world, not even in this state, but I like em and they catch game. Take care. Attachments:
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Post by akona20 on Sept 28, 2009 1:08:02 GMT -6
You folks seem to want bitches to start being really serious at a very young age. Rising two and nothing means nothing rising three and still nothing means problems.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 28, 2009 8:01:49 GMT -6
there is NO evidence I ever saw, that how good the hound is, is based on how old they are when starting. I've had great ones start out early, and duds as well.
lets really open up a can of worms- its my contention, that a GOOD pack, is made up largely of faulty hounds. that the best packs, have hounds with strengths in one area, and hounds with strengths in another. Each so to speak has their "duties". You get all fast hounds, or all cold nose hounds, or all fast nose hounds- and you often have problems making that pack smooth and operating as one unit, which is the goal in running packs.
Back to breeding- one common concept that new breeders often have, is breeding faulty dogs to dogs with opposite faults- thinking the combo will eliminate faults-
Oscar Wilde, the famous playwright, once had a beautiful girl come up to him, and say "we should have children, with your brains and my looks, they would be perfect" He replied" with my luck, they would get my face, and your brains"
Many think- breed a tight mouthed dog, to a mouthy dog- and the pups will be "perfect". But of course what happens, is you get both tight and mouthy-
1 generation breeding, is a crap shoot.
You MUST look at the first 3 generations- and not only that- see what those generations have produced-
IF the background is there, IF those generations are top, sound hounds- then, the chances of a sound bitch having good pups, is as good as the perfect individual. Thats not opinion, thats genetics.
There was once a hound called Becky Direct.She was outstanding. AS perfect a hound as one could want. Very famous Fd CH in WI/IL area back in the day. She was bred many times- produce very little. Why? She was a sport- she has no background of good hounds behind her, thus nothing to pass on.
similar examples exist in every animal breed. Geo Nixon, the all time leading producer of Fd Ch beagles, and owner of most of the top producing studs of the era, was a dairy farmer, and he took his knowledge of genetics- line breeding, in breeding- and produced a strain that bred true.
One thing he stressed- DO NOT WASTE THAT FIRST BREEDING
his records showed by far, by far, that the best litter a bitch produced, was her first as far as producing Fd Chs.
As I said, I'll breed a hound with flaws from an exceptional background, before I'd breed a great individual with a poor background. Why? simple Mendelian genetics.
and of course, it goes without saying, that I'd prefer to breed that exceptional hound with an exceptional background first.
and I'll go on record, that 99% of the hounds out there, have at least 1 fault if not more-
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Post by rockcreekcurs on Sept 28, 2009 18:06:10 GMT -6
I surely didn't mean that just cause they start early, they will be better dogs or even make dogs at all. I just mean if they start early, you won't be sitting around wondering if they'll do something when they are 2(I'm not keeping dogs to look at). To each their own. Personally I don't keep a pup much past 6 months if it isn't doing SOMETHING! It doesn't have to be treeing it's own lions on the dirt or anything, just doing enough to keep me interested in training and feeding it. If I loose interest... I realize what you are saying about genetics, could hold true, I mean anything is possible. I just won't breed a dog that won't hunt. That being said, if I do breed a dog it will have a SOLID background as I get my dogs from buddies that feel the same way. I agree that all dogs have faults... some have minor faults(faults I can deal with, no such thing as a PERFECT hound) and their strengths by far outweigh the faults. Others have some serious faults (Like not hunting) and they far outweigh their strengths. My dogs had better turn out to be cat hounds, their lives depend on it! LMAO! Take care.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 28, 2009 18:30:40 GMT -6
good post- I supect we agree more than we differ.
slow starting hounds never bothered me, I always had enough to work-
I found setting them up, seemed to help- that is, rather than keep at it, let their brain develop a little more- then try again.
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Post by furman on Sept 29, 2009 7:23:24 GMT -6
I’ll have to do some thinking here and work the dog some more through the season and see what happens The reason that I’m looking at breeding the bitch that I have is the mother…she’s one of the best hounds that I have ever seen and the breeding behind her and my dog is the best out there...Also I want pups to work with plus it can be hard to get good pups to work with I’ll never claim to be a big dog guy it’s a side thing to have fun in life.
Thanks for the insight guys
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Post by makete on Sept 29, 2009 11:06:01 GMT -6
Dont some female dogs hunt better after they have had a litter?
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