Would it be wrong?

[trappnman]

yes- and some just odn;t get going until after they have come in saeon-

its why I always preferred males for both hunting and trials- but thats not to say plenty of females aren't good- they just sometimes take more messing with.....

[rockcreekcurs]

I don't know about the female hunting better after a litter or a heat cycle. I know that some guys use the motherly instinct to fire a bitch up when she's nursing a batch. Personally, I'm not trying to talk them into anything.

Here is a bitch of mine at 15 months old. She's never had a litter, but if she keeps on like she is... She'll be bred next spring.

Take care.

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[rockcreekcurs]

Here is another pic of this bitch when she was around 6 months old baying a young lion on the ground (Dog closest to the camera). She hadn't come into heat at that time, but was game crazy.

In answer to your original question: Would it be wrong? IMO, Hell no it wouldn't be wrong. They're your dogs and you're the one that feeds them, hunts them and runs the shovel. You can do whatever you please with them. What would be wrong is to sell the pups without disclosing the facts.(I'm surely not implying that you would do anything of the sort, but it happens ALL the time.)

I keep the dogs I keep because they work for me, I do believe through selective breeding, hard culling and very firm standards, you can produce hounds that start early and finish young. That is what I am after.

If your dogs suit you, that's all that matters.

Take care and happy hunting!

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[trappnman]

rock creek- I found it very common, for bitches around the heat cycle, to have a distinct change in their running patterns and style- its as if their hormones are effecting their brains-

ever see that before in other.....animals?

[irnhdmike]

Yea Steve see it all the time with humans. Bird dogs,retrievers go whaky too. Some don't some do. Don't forget a lot of bitches are kept as brood bitches that have never been in the woods. Just bred because of bloodlines. Some great producers some not so great. Who knows.

[rockcreekcurs]

I have seen this, matter of fact I saw it just yesterday. When a female is in estrus, lot's of things change cause they have love on their mind. I usually pen my dogs up when they come in, to avoid accidental breedings, but yes it does change everything.

Take care.

[Lil' Bit]

Here's my two cents. Dogs have a very diverse genepool. Inside that little bit of dna, they have hundreds, thousands even of other dogs, and somewhere in that family tree were dogs that didn't have a single clue what a raccoon was.

But, she also has a fantastic pedigree where there are plenty of dogs that do have a clue.

Just like with hip dysplasia, instinct can be passed on through breeding. The best you can do as a breeder is try to minimize it by breeding only the best, or at least being able to acknowledge your dog's short comings and breed for improvement.

You can breed two OFA exellents from OFA excellents from OFA excellents and HDA's... and still end up with a dysplastic puppy in the mix! That's the dice you roll.

She has a fantastic pedigree. Breed to a dog that has a strong instinct, and you have a better than average chance that you're going to get puppies with strong instinct.

[trappnman]

god post lil bit-

to add, the only reason line/in breeding gets a bad rap, is that the breeders don't cull - line breeding intensifys traits good and bad-

breeding 2 unrelated dogs, is an outcross, even if within the same breed.

[rockcreekcurs]

Oct 9, 2009 6:24:20 GMT -6 trappnman said:

to add, the only reason line/in breeding gets a bad rap, is that the breeders don't cull - line breeding intensifys traits good and bad-

This is the truth if ever there was. Most people call it "Linebreeding" if it works and "Inbreeding" if it doesn't.

If you are Inbreeding or Linebreeding... I just hope you have a good reason( IMO, You need a damn good reason to be breeding anyway). "Papers"... or lineage without performance, is IMO... never a good reason. Breed what does the "JOB", if you expect the pups to do the "JOB". You might be surprised.

When a person does a "Linebreeding", with dogs that are doing the "JOB".... they must have related individuals that do the "JOB", not just line up on paper.

Then of course... if a person is gonna be a "Breeder of Hunting Dogs"... they should be a Hunter too... ;D

Take care.

[trappnman]

one mistake so many make, is thinking to breed a bitch with faults, to a dog with the opposite fault- thinking you have pups in the middle-

and all you usually get, is pups that have either or both faults..............

always breed strength to strength- when that trait is true, then breed for other traits. A breeder must decide on one or two traits that are important to him, that will be the foundation for your strain of hounds. Once that is established, then minor traits can be strived for.

[musher]

I'm not a hunting dog breeder but I have bred a few sled dogs.

The first thing is that too much line breeding can end up with dogs with heritary faults like epilepsy.

I think that this is more common with sled dogs than hunting dogs. Sled dogs are sometimes bred for very specific traits. An example of this is top speed for 5 miles. If the dog can run like Bullseye for 5 miles and end up 100% spent it's a breeder. The rest doesn't matter. The dog only has to do it for maybe 7 years and by then it's pushing daisy's. Even if the dog only does it for 2 years it's o.k.. That means that you don't see too many family problems coming out.

A distance dog need speed, endurance and good feet. But the endurance racers can sometimes have 200 dogs. They pick the best 16 dogs AT THAT TIME for the present race. Sure they'll have regulars. But the team is still fairly fluid. A fault might not be a problem given the timing and race conditions.

Hunting dogs perform a more complex task and have to "think" more than a sled dog. This takes more time and the effect of a genetic fault is more obvious and has greater consequences. Especially when the hunter only has 1-2 dogs.

I've also noticed that pups that want to pull at a very early age make the best dogs. Yes, some pull a little later. But they'll never be as nuts about it as the early pullers. They might be smarter, more obedient, and whatever else but they will not pop a kidney pulling. Sure they can be better all round dogs and even excellent leaders. However, they won't be insane with drive.

As an example: I have an old female. Tiny thing that is a distance runner. She has won race's (before I had her since I do not race). Last year she was keeping up with the team. Not bad for a 12 year old dog. Every time we stopped she'd harness bang. This year she can't keep up. The last run I had to unhook her before she got hurt. She was pretty exhausted. But she would not stop. She can't. She does not know how to.

When she dies I'm figuring that her legs will still be kicking as I shovel dirt on her.

I have 2 new pups from my last breed running now. The mother is right off Jeff King's sled. The father is from a Quebec recreational racer. They caught on to their work within one km. They hold their own for 25 km's. Last night was there first night run.
They are running fools. They see me put the sled on the truck and they go haywire. They've been hooked up for less than a month. It's "run, run, run, what's in front. run, run, run, non-stop.

I might try one of them lead before the end of the winter.

When it's in them, you know real quick.

[trappnman]

too much line breeding (the same thing as in breeding) does indeed intensify traits- both good and bad.

but its the only way to create and maintain a bloodline- you must intensify what is important to you. And those that fall short, need to not be bred. Thats a good defintion of a puppy mill btw- a breeder who only breeds for puppies not traits.

the best- and worst- individuals I've ever seen, are from linebreeding. A dog that is not line bred, is a sport, and most likley unless a truely exceptional individual, will not breed true.