Factory Fur Cartridges

[Gasconade]

Steve, after reading the 19 calhoon thread, I just wanted to ask you if there was a .243 factory cartridge you would recommend as a fur bullet.

[edge]

I'm not Steve,but I play him on TV........

The only 243 load I like for fur(coyotes,not fox)is the 70 gr v-max,federal premium......pinpoint accuracy and very reasonable hole.

Edge

[17HMR]

Im not Steve either but, I like the .243 hornaday 58 grain v-max factory load on yotes.

[lb]

I'm not Steve......and there is no correct answer. A 243 is not a fur gun, regardless of handloaded bullet choice or factory cartridge configuration. To put the odds as favorable as possible, I'd suggest a heavy 100 grain bullet, select your aim point carefully, and hope for the best. The best being a complete pass through before the bullet opens up without hitting large bone. Lung shot.

Good hunting. LB

[edge]

Take a hundred with the 243,note deductions at the fur sale,now factor in shots you would have(or *should* have) passed up with a pea shooter.......while not a perfect round,when winds are from zip to 50,and shots from under 100 to over 3........its a nice option.

I have shot a few grapefruit sized holes(raked shoulders or bellies)but in fact my 22-250 would have done the same or worse under those circumstances;difference being,the recovery time would have been slower or non existant.

Perfect,no,but when ya gotta dance with the one what brung ya;the 243 will take fur.

Edge

PS to 17hmr;I cannot get ANY Hornady round to shoot well in my Rugers...........4"group @ 100 yds.......ouch.Sure wish I knew why,they have a crapload of semi-custom loads I'd like to try.

[17HMR]

Edge, I have a savage that I shoot them through, and have good groupings at 125, I dont pull the trigger if more than 200.

[lb]

Edge, I like your reasoning. Too often, people have an unrealistic expectation. Fact is, you really cannot tell the difference between a coyote hit with a 22-250 and one hit with a 243; all things being equal. On the other hand, we seldom have identical shot presentations, so you really have to take an average, as you say; 100 or so examples?

Yes, the shots that you decline with a seventeen count, too. So do the runners. All in all, I like to address my comments for the person that can't take all the good and bad and just wants a yes or no answer. Fact is, there will usually be some damage with a 243. You need to deal with it.

In fact, I have seen quite a bit of damage using seventeen caliber, if you hit the animal incorrectly. No pat answer, but you can usually count on (at least) some damage with a 243. It is usually counterproductive to use a light bullet at high speed. I have used every bullet weight, from 56 through 105 grain, in every point configuration imaginable, in both 243 and 6MM Rem. They all cause damage.

Over the long haul, I see less pelt damage with bullets in the 95-100 grain range. What do I use? For general (all around) predator use, in twenty-four caliber; 70 to 85 grain bullets and I am not generally concerned with terminal damage. I just want them dead.

Of course, fox and bobcat are a different story.

Good hunting. LB

edit: just curious; what do all those different colored stars mean? Anybody?

[Bristleback]

Edge, that's why my fur guns are Savages.....cept for the 6x284 I'm having built right now........they LUV Hornady ammo, bullets too.

[edge]

**It is usually counterproductive to use a light bullet at high speed. **

That should be on a T-Shirt.........I couldnt agree more.While I have never drawn the parallel on my own,my first"lighter is better"disappointment came with my very first '06 and the ACCELERATOR....member those?45 grains of the most useless longrange projectile invented since the rock.SUUURE,the saleslick assured me...the 06 uses any weight bullet from 45-220 grains....

WAHOOOO!Shrieked the soon-to-be-broke farmboy..........2 YEARS I saved up for a brand new gun.........crammed my feet into the same pair of hockey skates for three seasons to save more money.........all to find out that while the venerable '06 *CAN*take a variety of bullets,knowing where they will hit is somthing else entirely........it shot 180's with laserlike accuracy.......great for blacks,not much for deer or yotes tho......ive and learn.

Excelent reply,lb,perhaps we should start a thread on the 204.........not sure if I can go another season without one......

A**SAVAGE**?Other than my 308 mod 99.....the savages I have seen are......well,sorta wonky....rough wood,stamped checkering and triggers like railroad switches.......BUT,I have not been new rifle shopping in a while,maybe they are back to making good stuff again......like in the sterling/fox vein?

Someone recently mentioned they had come out with a more than acceptable side by side......maybe they twernt lying......

I know you are in the biz Bristle,I'm anxious to hear what gun youre using.

Edge

[edge]

I had to restart my puter......

I am not sure what the stars are for......I thought it was for the most posts.....but I have like 300 and I have a pile of stars.....really not sure on the color...I didnt know they were different colors.........I hope mine are gold......nothing like a gold star to make a guy feel acomplished.

Edge

[edge]

**I dont pull the trigger if more than 200. **

Sorry,17,I missed that post......I,on the other hand,have been getting dang few shots UNDER 200.......except Jacks.....not sure why I cant get em closer sometimes.....other times they come in all fired up and twitchy.....in THAT case,I squeeze at the first opportunity.
In the other cases,I think they just come to peek....not really interested in up close and personal.

Edge

[Bristleback]

Edge, as far as Savages.......many, not all will argue they are the most accurate out of the box gun.........sure there will be folks that say "my Savage.....wouldn't shoot" and on and on.....but the far majority like them.......
NOT talking at all a custom gun.....out of the box.

My Savage 22-250 shoots the 55 and 50 grain Vmax's so well I don't see much need to reload.........different point of impact with either bullets.
FIRST thing I did was take it to the inventor of the Sharp Shooter Trigger and give him a Benjamin Franklin for a trigger installed. Since the ACCU trigger has been introduced and well received.

Wood, stamped.........I couldn't care less what the gun looks like, seriously......it's for hunting, covered with camo......my "pretty" guns are over and unders, take them to the trap, skeet, sporty's range on blue bird days.......LOL

A buddy of mine always liked busting my chops about that ugly Savage........and the oversized NUT that connects the barrel...well again, I couldn't care less what it looks like, as long as it shoots.

The 6-284 I'm having built now is as close to a custom gun as I've ever had.......Rem LA, Kreiger barrel, aftermarket stock and that is about it. Gunsmith will cut the barrel, chamber, fit, etc.....the rest are out of the box guns.......
As to the 6-284, had 3 guides in Texas turn me on to this cartridge....thought of it about 7-8 yrs ago, but just stayed with my 22-250........they were pulling out targets, guns, finally took on out to the range one night........loved it. Should be done in about 3-4 weeks. Of course I'll be reloading for it.......those guides........all 3 fell in love with the 75grn Vmax.....

[lb]

Just pray that the first load you try is accurate.....

[Bristleback]

Why do you say that?

Would you agree, that the first recipe is rarely the most accurate?

[lb]

I say that because I have known people to shoot out the barrel of a 6/284 in 450 rounds. I don't think the small gain in performance is justified, over a stock 6MM Remington, in a hunting application. You don't need it in 95% of the situations encountered, so and unless you have a set of "golf clubs" handy, that is a huge waste of barrel life. Best application I see is long range rock chuck hunting, where you control the distances involved. In a day of coyote hunting, you may shoot a dozen times, and never beyond 150/200 yards, where a 243 is more than addequate. Best application is night hunting from a set up hunting truck where you can save your hotrock 6/284 (dialed in for 450' or so) and use a different gun for most of the night, on those routine shots. On daylight stands, an accuracy rifle chambered in 6/284 is usually too heavy and not handy, with the necessarily longer and thicker barrel; at least 26" for maximum performance.

Anyway, that chambering, and such, (like my 25'06 Ackley) occupies a certain nitch. Yes, it is useful for a very narrow range of application, but it is a little bit like driving your Ford Cobra two blocks to the grocery store, when you coud get there on a bike or even walk? Yes, some people do buy a Hummer and drive it two blocks to the grocery store, but how smart is that (?) and consider how much it costs, just to impress your neighbors; some of whom are laughing at you.

Anyway, that's just my opnion. A standard 243 (which I own) and a 6MM (which I also own) will continue to take a lot of fur, but that 25'06 AI doesn't get used much. Long range at mousing coyotes, maybe?

Good hunting. LB

[Bristleback]

Certainly if one has his loads on "SCORCH" one could conceivably use one up in 500 rounds. Just visited with my buddy that owns one, he's not running it "wide open" and figures he'll likely see a minimum of 1000 rounds and possibly 1500 rounds........before it needs work.........his comment, that's alot of killing.

I know of some serious coyote men who in their humble opinion.......are very satisfied with an 750 round barrel..........figuring they are killing 500 plus coyotes with that......

Certainly not a gun I'm going to head to a prarie dog town and burn up 500 + rounds in a weekend.
Just a gun, to stretch out a little farther, with confidence for me.

Good chattin, appreciate the input, like I said my first that isn't out of the box.

[edge]

Dang this is a good thread......

Bristle,I hear you on the not too pretty guns...all mine are working guns,they were pretty decent at one time,but no longer.Even the annual douche and oil doesnt yield anything new looking.....just a little less crud.
Just getting ready to renew the spraypaint job on my 77 stainless.......but,as you say...it shoots.
Congrats on the custom........no customs for me for a while.....but I look forward to the day.

I am not much of a custom caliber guy tho,while I rarely have less than 100 rounds of ammo in my truck,I visualize beeing on my way to snipe coyotes and be out of amo...and the wal mart recently selling out of the 23-321 megablaster,TTK............

And as for reloading,I frequently double load my blackpowder Hawken(not a replica,an ORIGINAL)..whic is loud and smokey...BUT I take my slovenly attention to THAT detail as a sign that perhaps I ought not reload stuff.

Edge

[SteveCraig]

Sorry it took so long to get back to you, but I been bear trapping and moose calling in Maine.

I used a 243 for just under 40 years. I used it in the fur boom while making a living trapping and calling. I HAD to have a fur friendly load, and the best i could come up with was 42.5 gr. of IMR 4350 and a 60 gr. Sierra Varminter. I still use this load in my old Mossberg 800. It has opened up a little from half inch groups to about one inch groups, but it still is fur friendly. with this round. If you catch him a wee bit thin, you are going to have to sew. I do not get exit holes with this round over 25 yards or so.

My other fur friendly round is a 22 Hornet, 10 gr. of IMR 4227 and a 40 gr. VMax. I love that little sucker!
FWIW

[andy1]

Bristleback,
This is my first post here, and believe me, Im not trying to start a fight. What LB said carrys alot of water, IMO. Ive been down the wildcat trail and still like hotrod calibers. Im struggling just a little with one right now, as a matter of fact.

Theres no doubt the 6-284 is a fine long range round. Good on ya. But, from everything I see, its a barrel burner. You said something indicating you may not run hot rod loads to save the bbl? If thats the case, what have you gained over the 243 or 6mm? In the real world, being practical, what have you gained? Thats the whole idea of the 6-284 is steppin up the speed of a 6mm bullet, and thats gonna make it eat bbls, no free lunch.

Just like LB, I have a 25-06AI. Its a fine shooter. I wont shoot anymore coyotes with it, because I like fur, and its NOT a fur gun. Not by the longest stretch. Its mostly doomed for a few shots during deer season and the occaisonal prarie dog town. Like you, I had visions of long kills on coyotes with it. But in reality, I have seldom come up against a situation that my 22, 20 or 17 couldnt handle. And sure a standard 6mm could handle. I guess there are a few that are too far and maybe the 25-06AI would have paid off. But not enough to put up with the aggrivation of carrying a set of "golf clubs" with me, as LB said.

Take it for what its worth. Its damn sure a fine round, from what I hear anyway. But it is what it is. Its made to amp up the 6mm and thats gonna eat bbls. If you back it down, you havent gained a thing.

JMHO.

Andy

[andy1]

I figured if I was going to post on this, I ought to do some more homework. Dont know much about the 6-284, just what I heard.

After some quick study, why is it a bbl burner? Compared to a standard 6mm, its not that much more. I found loads with the 75gr VMax anywhere from 3200-3600 for both rounds. Found one that looked pretty radical that was 3800 fps for the 6-284, but for the most part, it looked like with standard loads, they were close with the wildcat getting the nod by 100-150 fps at the most. Am I missing something? The fast load was from a website and source that I wouldnt count on, not with my eyes and face on the stock.

Anyway, it should be a good shooter and good coyote rifle, for killing. No way will it be a fur gun, any way you slice it.

Have fun!!