Human scent in semi wilderness

[trappnman]

This comes up again and again- and everytime the discussion gets going, a certain individual plays the "poor me" card or has others play it for him. I've seen it directed against me on a couple of other forums.

When someone has such set in stone ideas on human scent and canines, and yet never seems to back that up with statistics, I start wondering. Esp when that advice goes against every thing I've learned, and everything my mentors tell me about coyotes.

Human scent is so overrated with coyotes, that its silly. Human scent is the last thing I really worry about. As k-9 said- better 1 trap made on location with bare hands, etc- then 10 made off location with rubber boots.

now in most wilderness settings, animals that have no history with humans- aren't overly spooked by them. Its only with constant contact from humans, that they get wary.

The coyotes I've seen in the Arrowhead here, support that.

The coyotes I see down here, support that.

The coyotes in WY support that..

and so on...

don't worry about human scent- worry about location and presentation.

This always does seem to get down to 1 individual- and while he is a nice guy, hes not someone that I'd want teaching me more than the basics. Sorry- his experiences just don't add up-

I once asked him how many hes caught in last 5 years, last 10 years etc- and his response was to get mad. When the advice coming from him, while sound in the basic sense- is so different- then my friends, yes- I do want more than his say so.

if this makes anyone mad, it shouldn't. Its just exactly what I feel, and to have other coyote trappers put down, because they "are slip shod" "amateurs" etc because they don't do as he does, doesn't cut it with me.

Wiley's wrong, Bob's wrong, Andy's wrong, k-9s wrong, I'm wrong...

everyones wrong....

and thats why- "saying its so- doesn't make it so..."

[frenchman]

here guys look for the magic lure.

You can show them and tell them about location, they want the lure, THE lure that will make the big catches!

[mr. finch]

i dont do anything to help on sent or try to make it worse.i really dont even think about it anymore when setting up

[garman]

So the hazmat suit I bought to set in next year I did not need?

[outdoorsaddict]

Amen Steve. I read and don't respond out of respect for my elders when I read all his scent control nonsense. I too have about had enough.

[primetime]

I've always been 50/50 on this issue.

Where does cleanliness and productivity cross? Getting anal about it only slows you down - way down. But then ignoring the issue isn't really the answer either.

I've never made a next day catch on coyotes - with a new set.

Can't remember, but think I might have taken a few in next day remakes.

I put in a lot of sets just before dark. Do I think it affects that nights catch. Absolutely, but it's only a 24 hour problem for me. Far better to get the sets in when I can and not worry about what I'm wearing or where I've been.

I'm not sure how long a coyote is spooked of human scent, but I've said it before and I'll say it again. I've seen many coyotes while out hunting deer & turkeys. If and when they hit your scent trail from where you walked in they will turn inside out and head for cover or back the way they came. This is many times after 4, 5, 6 hours.

The argument is always the coyote knows you where there but are no longer there. Well that coyote has no idea that I'm still hiding in the woods, but he turns inside out when he hits my trail. I don't think he cares if I'm there or back at home watching LOST. He is going to take off that first night at least for the next X amount of hours.

I have no idea how human scent compares to other scents, but I'm a firm believer that some peoples odor is more frightening (For lack of a better word) then others. I have no other way to explain why some people get so many next day catches and I've got none. I'd like to see if anyone else thinks this is possible.

I know who this post is directed at, and I don't know him personally, but I see nothing wrong with going to that extreme if you so desire. For me it's not practical, but I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Now in saying that I don't beleive that you can in any way eliminate human odor. That goes for trapping and hunting. You can spray yourself. Wash yourself. Carbonize your clothing. Do whatever you want, but you are still going to smell like a human to an animal.

So why am I 50/50 on the issue? Because I beleive human scent is a factor, BUT I don't think there is anything anyone can do about it.

"IF" you could eliminate human odor all together with one simple pill I know each and every trapper on this forum would buy it. Why wouldn't you?

In closing Human scent is a factor, but how much and for how long is the question. To me it's just a 24 hour problem.

[garman]

I have read his techniques of taking a long pole to place traps in a winter set etc. I will not get totally into it. If I was going to do that I would never get more than 3 sets in a day, but as I say to each is own.

outdoorsaddict said:

Amen Steve. I read and don't respond out of respect for my elders when I read all his scent control nonsense. I too have about had enough.

[trappnman]

I've watched a lot of calling videos, thanks to Wiley E.

In them, I've seen many, many coyotes cross the scent trail of the caller- and unless fresh- they cross it readily. Now- fresh scent on the air, or a just made track- different story.

As far as sets made at dark- one year I kept records of this very thing, after a conversation with Wiley. I kept track of 1st day catches in sets made before noon, and after noon. No difference at all, in whether the set made a 1st day catch.

While not every set connects first night- I don't think I've ever set up a new line or expanded a line without taking coyotes the next day. Heck, Zags got 9 opening check this year. And if I recall, it might have been 10, with 1 stolen and returned to him the next day- but he didn't count that one- I would have! LOL

I too went through that 2 sets of tools, and wearing clean gloves at every sets, and worried about people at the set and spitting, smoking, urinating, etc. And as my collaring proved- it made no difference.

On your suit garmen, tongue in cheek of course, but did yo know- that hounds can follow INDIVIDUALS when they are wearing moonsuits? And we are going to fool a coyote by not spitting?

I hear so often- let my sets sit because no action- then I caught one.. with the response being- "see, your scent left the area"> one guy even posted "his sets sat for 3 weeks without nothing, ten he got one" and the response was still "human scent" I mean 3 weeks? come on.....

Where human scent does become a factor, and how much one can decide for himself- is with a "poorly" made set- meaning one that a coyote distrusts and doesn't work for a while- combine that with a lot of human scent, and he MIGHT stand back. But in my opinion, its the sets fault, not the human factor.

Many of the old mink books, also talked about human scent being a factor- to never let your tracks show in snow or mud, to splash water on the bank to dissipate your scent, etc. Human scent WAS considered the silver bullet decades ago.

But was it?

prime time- I don't buy into the individual scent thing, but who knows. With all respect, you are a beginning coyote trapper, and although you are learning well, you just don't have enough experience on coyotes- and I think thats the #1 reason, why you don't have next day catches-

you will..... of that I have no doubt.

biggest thing, is I think newer coyote trappers try to construct sets, rather than just making them. And thats what spooks coyotes fro a night or two.

[trappnman]

and I agree- if someone wants to be overly cautious about scent- thats up to them, and it sure can't hurt.

BUT- the difference comes- when anyone that opposes this view- is regulated to having "slip shod methods" and "not paying attention" to detail.

[garman]

trappnman, I know what you mean about the suit, although I was joking! After running hounds for several years, and also seeing specials on drug dogs and seeing them in operation I have seen the power firsthand. We will NOT fool the coyote we are not there. I will wear gloves, and boots BUT it is more important, proper location, proper set construction then good bait, in my humble opinion. But set making by using chest waders etc, after a few days scent leaves for the most part anyway.

[primetime]

trappnman said:

biggest thing, is I think newer coyote trappers try to construct sets, rather than just making them. And that's what spooks coyotes fro a night or two.

I can't deny that. I know that my first sets were something to behold. I'm talking museum quality for sure. Constructed and time consuming. I'm talking the 30 minute set getting everything just right.

I've come along way, but they still take me 5-10 minutes sometimes. But they look much different. Far less constructed and much more natural.

So does spending more time making each set compound the issue? If you don't think human scent makes any difference then no. But since I believe that it does raise some red flags then yes I believe the constructed looking set coupled with the prolonged time spent would cause me to not get next day catches.

I don't know I'm sitting here thinking. If you took a constructed "Looking" set void of all human odor. I mean like you were never there would that set produce on day one??? I think it would.

I'm not saying you should do anything about it, I'm just saying that yes it has to be a factor to some extent. To what extent I don't fully know yet nor will I ever.

[Stef]

don't worry about human scent- worry about location and presentation.

Can't agree more

But

I'm in favor of using clean traps, clean waxed sand and as clean as possible my gloves.

Stef

[trappnman]

If you took a constructed "Looking" set void of all human odor. I mean like you were never there would that set produce on day one??? I think it would.


No, I don't believe it would. At least in any significant numbers.

I think coyotes are very in tune to their local area, and if something looks out of place- they avoid it until it BECOMES commonplace.

on the other hand, a well made dirthole- by well made, meaning natural looking and blended into the area- I have no doubt that it would connect first night even if made barehanded, etc.

[Traveler]

I started out years ago with the rubber gloves,rubber boots......hold your breath at a set ,do a low crawl from down wind stuff because that's what I was reading.

Then I got hooked up with Bill Nelson and he taught me different.For years and years now I've used bare hands and paid very little attention to human scent.I've caught coyote pups....I've caught younger adults,I've caught 'ole dogs up in the 5-7 year old brackett.

Being on location ,having a good set and having something there he wants is the number one thing in my opinion.

Years ago I watched one of our state trappers come in on a coyote complaint.Back in those days the public was welcome to come and watch.There was 25-30 people standing there that day......3-5 guys chewing beechnut and spitting constantly.I watched the government man pull brand new traps out of a carton,covered with the factory film they come with,make a set and caught the problem coyote the second night.

After that........I didn't worry to much about human scent.

[SgtWal]

I have a set of gloves in the setting bucket to wear when making sets. But every day from time to time I forget to change them. I wear hip boots to keep my knees dry more than anything else. Indiana gets muddy.
I believe that the responce to scent depends on the pressure on the coyotes. If almost every contact results in a negative experience then yes they will react quickly and even violently. But if most contact is benign the reaction will be far less.
I suspect that back in the day alot of that scent talk was to discourage the new trappers. Make things as hard as possible and cut down the compitition.

[garman]

I believe the biggest issue is guys or gals that get lure/bait scent on the trap, or bedding. My thought is that is where ONE of the digging problems start, as well as a unstable trap bed.

[primetime]

This might not fit, but I'm going to post it anyway.

What is natural?

Lets say a tractor is pulling a wagon. You loose a wheel and the wagon's axle falls down causes a large gouge in the soy bean field. It's an eye soar. Very out of place. But does it bother a coyote?

Or your discing a field and pull up a large rock out in the middle. Nothing but dirt for miles and this rock. Natural? Well, you'd have to say yes. Out of place? Also yes. Does it scare coyotes?

Now you construct a trench set in the same soybean field. Looks no different then the gouge made by the wagon. But it's ugly and out of place. (Unnatural?)

Or you carry in this rock and plop it out in a field and make a set by it. (Unnatural?)

I guess my point is the Natural sort of becomes unnatural when made by human hands. I can and do make natural looking sets to my eyes, but is it really natural. Most of the time the things that stick out get the attention.

The most unnatural thing in my eyes is the lure. I've already said that I think human scent is a short term problem. How short I'm not sure.

There is nothing in nature that can produce the combination of smells that most lures have. That is of course unless you are using a turd, urine, straight skunk essence, and those type things. In many cases I think it takes the coyotes 2 or 3 days to trust the lure.

(All food for thought to arouse some discussion)

[primetime]

Also another thing I've thought of in the past and may or may not have any merit. I don't know I'm not a scent specialist.

But would a beginner trapper, a clean freak, or whatever it might be that is very nervous while constructing a set put off a different odor then say a veteran trapper who is relaxed as can be and just punches it in and goes?

Do you put off a different smell when you are nervous, anxious, or what have you. If so could that have any effect?

Just a few things that I've thought about in the past. So now I'll

[garman]

i have the belief it could be a combination of things that do not add up for the 'yote. Fresh dirt, smell of human odor, trap placed in front, odd lure smell.

[trappnman]

but you left out one factor- that wagon probably DID spook that coyote for a night or two-

at least studies done at Logan, point out that new objects, cause stand backs and nervousness.- and it takes many hours and enve days, to get thme to apporach that object.

Is lure unatural- sure, unless pure gland or pure food-

but once agan Logan shows that some smells, are indeed "natural" glucose, sugars, acids, etc- and that coyotes do respond to different smells differently in how they work the set.

So by making lures that emulate these ingriedients, you increase the chances that the curiosity factor becomes overwhelming. And I don't agree that lures aren't natural odors- because most lures are made out of natural stuff- rotton meat is rotten meat- the smell is universal- now add some skunk, add some gland- its still in the range of "natural" smells.

There are only so many classificaitons of "odor"- its putting those odors into combinations, that is the magic of a good lure maker.

A curiosity lure, in a natural setting- is hard to beat.

since most of us here don't set on sign, but set on location- I think the 2-3 day factor, over an entire line, is just simply the coyotes are finding the sets.