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Post by primetime on Jan 18, 2008 11:45:40 GMT -6
I've read those study's.
But I can't remember how the "New" objects were placed.
Was it placed by human hands? If you think human scent has no influence then you toss that variable out?
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Post by outdoorsaddict on Jan 18, 2008 12:42:50 GMT -6
I am a "to each his own" guy. Scent is a non issue for me and I will assure you there is nothing wrong with my method or attention to detail. It irritates me to have someone suggest exactly that with only a "because I said so". Be different if Wendt tells you something for the simple fact that his success is documented on film, pictures, numbers, etc.etc. however you want to measure. Doesn't instantly make him right but benefit of the doubt has been earned.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 18, 2008 13:07:23 GMT -6
no, don't remember how they were either- but since these were coyotes in enclosures, would human scent be factor? Or a given neutral? Heck, I sure don't know.
as far as giving off an odor- of course non of us know- but I can't believe that our emotions, would cause shedded skin, hair, gland smells to have distinct smells- simply because we run the entire range of emotions constantly. Look how many times one's emotions change over a few minutes-
I just read confidence comes from success, not the reverse, and I agree with this.
but don't take this as set in stone- as most things here, it's just an opinion......trappnman
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Post by SgtWal on Jan 18, 2008 14:37:47 GMT -6
I agree with that statement on location versus sign. Back when I started you looked for sign along your line and made sets for what was there. Today the push is set the locations and wait. That could easily explain the 2 or 3 day lag between the set and the catch. I'm not sure I agree with the disturbance idea. Coyotes don't avoid freshly plowed fields, or snowmobile tracks in fresh snow. I think there is some issue of context involved. A single small disturbance in a large area for example.
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Post by charlesks on Jan 18, 2008 15:33:36 GMT -6
to much info out htere that is out dated, or wrote when EVERYONE wrote a book, to try to gain an edge whether or not it was factual.
ill tell you this, i spent 3 days in Montana with John Graham. it wasnt untill the THIRD day, that i found any fresh coyote sign. And this was me LOOKING CONSTANTLY for tracks, poo, etc.
now, John has done an incredible job controlling, and yea, i can honestly say "controlling" the coyotes in that county. But i watched him make fox sets. He makes the same movement, over and over. Though i didnt directly ask him about what he felt about scent, it was obvius to me. Probably not in the top 5 things he flet critical for catching fox. BUT, he did mention how spooky the coyotes where. They are trapped 365, shot at 365 out of planes, etc.
Im not a pro, but i like to think im pretty decent. i work 8-5 m-f and 8-12 on saturday, i take off 2 days at the opner to set up my coyote line, and thats it. i make sets in the dark pretty much all season, i find locations in the dark, etc. i know im in the same boat as alot of people. work, family, THEN trapping. THANK GOD i have a wife that lets those 2 flip flop from time to time. getting up at 3:30 during the first of the season and working all day isnt easy, but its the only way i can do it. HAVING SAID THAT...
I DONT HAVE TIME TO PIDDLE DADDLE ABOUT OVERLY CAUTIOS SCENT CONTROL!
slap the sets in, move on....
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Post by garman on Jan 18, 2008 15:49:38 GMT -6
I think the point here is good Location, Location Location! I can find good-great locations all the time. The begining of the season this year mase me question, then I believe 17hmr asked me "did you set on sign". Alot of guys do I do not always. Maybe t-man would disagree, I do not know, but I will state this we so not have the land like some where sign sticks out like at wyoming, nebraska, etc. We have tall grasses, pastures, fields with tall grass edges, etc. Sometimes tracks and sign can disapear. It was easier and better FOR ME to look for location and set. I did fair for only setting 8-10 sections, I was flooded on the rest until late in the season. Anyway I also agree too much time spent with scent control can be too much time spent catching nothing.
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Post by bobm on Jan 18, 2008 15:59:24 GMT -6
I trapped for 25 years believing that everytime I had a problem with one of my K9 sets (digging, snapped traps, etc.) that the cause must be set contamination. The single most valuable thing I've learned on this site (thank you Mr's. Wendt and Gappa as well as some others) that improved my K9 trapping immensely was proper bedding of the trap. I catch more now then I ever did and often do not use gloves.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 18, 2008 16:07:27 GMT -6
I think there is some issue of context involved. A single small disturbance in a large area for example.
I agree
I understand what you mean garmen, and it can be tough to find sign- but I do think cnaine sign is easy to find here if oyu concentrate on a few areas- cow trials for sure, field roads, edges of bean fields and esp gopher mounds. I'm a "short" grass guy given any type of choice, so therefore most of my locations are in pastures, hay, picked fields. Many of my locations I trap all summer for gophers, so that does given me an advantage. Some of my bestl ocations, were found through summer sign. Look for the nearest all year habitat- and there's your coyotes.....So its not the lack of sign when I take the time to look, its just that the freshness or even existance of sign doesn't play a part in my setting. I have loops that I want to run in certain time spans, so they get set up during that time span or not at all. So while I know yotes are in the area, it could be bye and bye or it could be tonight.
Where out west- and WY, MA west at least is a big west- you almost need to set on fresh sign- the area is so vast- the Pathfinder for example was almost 250,000 acres of pretty much the same sage sand. If you didn't set on fresh sign, it could be a long wait.
but here- its as Sgt says- a few days, they will come back.
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Post by musher on Jan 18, 2008 16:11:30 GMT -6
Then what's the problem with speed dip? It's just a scent like so many others ....
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Post by bobm on Jan 18, 2008 16:17:52 GMT -6
Then what's the problem with speed dip? It's just a scent like so many others .... For some it's not. I don't think anyone suggested that scent is not a factor as it is clear that it is. Within reason, it's not the primary factor. There a big difference between pouring gasoline on a set vs. setting as if one is doing open heart surgery.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 18, 2008 16:34:28 GMT -6
boy musher you got me- I tried both and actually had my best year ever on speed dip- but as one wag once wrote- oh those misses.
All I know, is I get a lot of avoidance- working everywhere but over the trap, with a little corner exposed or with speed dipped OR F-1 traps. Wish I didn't- easy stuff to use and still coat my other traps in F-1 or dip.
Add in wet weather, and oh boy the troubles increased.
Experimented one year in Jan, cold like 20 below cold and snow on and off- made big wide patterns then had them snow covered- coyote after coyote walked direct to trap (under fresh snow) and dug that corner, then worked the back, etc. Caught 4 "dumb" coyotes in 2 weeks.
waited a couple of weeks, then came back with dyed/waxed traps- same sets, same frozen in stakes. Troubles ceased.
Never again will I ever use a dip again. For those that can, great- I cannot. Why the difference here, don't know. Also keep in mind, I caught a lot of coyotes with dip- not saying for a minute they can't be caught- but that was in the peak population years here, and I missed a lot. I like to think I don't miss TOO many know....
Rust also- a rusting trap, kiss it goodbye as a producing set- they will NOT work that rusty trap it seems more times than not. and again, sure, I catch coyotes on rusty traps- but FAR too often, when checking a set up close- if the tracks avoid the trap- its rusting.
At home, I change them out in a day or two after a coon or polished trap. Was a hard habit to get into but now it "hurts" not to do it.
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Post by musher on Jan 18, 2008 17:59:31 GMT -6
I think that people that have problems with dip don't dip early enough. It can take a heck of a long time to "cure."
Way back when, I'd been dipping a few years, and I met Stef. Since we were the only 2 people that seemed to know how to set a trap for fox, we got a chat going pretty quick. I mentionned dip and Ste decided to try it. It didn't work out!lol
Knowing Stef as I do now, I think that he dipped and set too close together.
I dip in May/June to set at the end of October. Traps are in the open air until then.
I don't trust rusty traps at all. By rusty I mean a trap that leaves rust marks on your hands when you manipulate them.
How do you explain how a wolf jams on the brakes when it has got its head halfway through the snare? It must be scent, because predators don't have that "eyeball on the side of their heads thing" going.
Often I use gloves for traps. It has nothing to do with scent. It's more to save my hands.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 18, 2008 18:24:28 GMT -6
no wonder stef is the way he is...
you got him to try dip, and it didn't work out..
I got him to try F-1 and it didn't work out...
Musher- those traps I tested in jan, were dipped in Sept, aired out and not used.
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Post by k9 on Jan 18, 2008 19:06:04 GMT -6
I have fought the battle over there for along time, and have watched Wiley, Steve, Bob, and many others fight it also. I used to try to understand the other side of the argument, and have now figured out the other side. I no longer try to understand if his coyotes are different, because they are not. It is all in the observer, and the close mindedness or lack of observations at all.
I too, long ago asked him how many coyotes he catches, and only made him mad.
Some are historians, telling tales of the past and never thinking beyond that. Some are just out killing coyotes. I prefer the latter.
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Jan 18, 2008 20:24:53 GMT -6
I've never used gloves when trapping coyotes, during the time that I caught the most in my life I spit Copenhagen at will anywhere around the set.
On the other hand I always preset the traps and covered them with rocks etc. until time to bait them so odor would have dissipated by then.
I think that there is different behavior toward sets in high populations than low populations.
I don't think I would use "dipped" coilspring traps for coyotes. I talked to Scott Byrd about this one time and he said, you know Joel when you crack a coilspring open the smell of speed dip permeates the air no matter long well aired they are.
I believe that is true, it gets in between the coils and never quite dries, I expect even more so in humid climates.
I think if you cut it a lot so it goes on thin there is less odor, sometimes it's kind of gummy.
Anyway I do pay some attention to H scent when trapping coyotes but don't lose sleep over it.
Joel
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Post by coyotewhisperer on Jan 18, 2008 20:25:12 GMT -6
Me too! ;D
Jeff
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