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Post by trappnman on Sept 12, 2007 7:46:30 GMT -6
Bob- it was the way you said it, not so much what you said.
Basically you stated that to give any thought to locations was a waste of time. Although not in those words.
and my point was this- if you think the discussion isn't worth discussing, then why post on it?
Others do- and thats WHY this forum is here- to discuss things. To learn. And to think.
If you just set up locations X sets per mile or every third farm no matter what, then thats how you do it. Any discussion of WHY one picks a location, would then have no value to you.
And if you don't just set up per mile or every 3rd farm- then you do indeed have criteria for the locations you set.
And that's what this discussion is about. WHY do you pick one location over another?
I can go to any farm just about, and snag a coyote. Many years ago, I eliminated all the 1 cooyte farms I had- and that was 22 that year. My thoguht was why check daily a 1 coyote location, when for the same miles or time, I could check locations that gave me multiple animals.
and its only common sense, that a location that gives you animals from several family groups- is NOT defended home range.
and whats the alternative to that?
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Post by Bristleback on Sept 12, 2007 8:16:33 GMT -6
In answering Steve Craig's point, I too, want the upwind side......
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Post by Wright Brothers on Sept 12, 2007 8:17:28 GMT -6
I like these post a pic and folks give 2 cents. Many think the same but the couple differing makes you think. One location not mentioned that I thought right away,
The spot where the pic taker was standing. Wouldn't be surprised if a K9 showed up there within the hour to see what the fuss was about.
In an area like that, an animal could watch a trapper from a long way off.
I know a place like that shear granite or whatever cliff. I harvest turkeys there a lot, on top. I think they hang there because two steps and airborne escape.
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Post by bobwendt on Sept 12, 2007 8:49:16 GMT -6
that`s not what I said at all. let me refrase it so maybe it doesn`t get deleted. this thread is getting way to mentally challenging for anyone just wanting to catch 500 coyotes a year. those guys are all just out setting traps and covering a lot of miles and putting in a lot of hrs.
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Post by PAskinner on Sept 12, 2007 9:06:33 GMT -6
I don't claim to be a coyote trapper, but what T-man is saying makes a lot of sense to me. Most of us are not out to catch 500 and don't have time to mess around with setting spots only good for an animal or two. The part-time trapper only has a few hours a day to run. Finding the two or three best locations in a five or ten mile area, means I only have to check a few traps and most of the fur is going to find me sooner or later, rather than plastering every "good" location and moving more often. Anyway, good thread.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 12, 2007 9:10:15 GMT -6
thank you Paskinner- that was my point exactly.
I don't consider makng observations and then drawing comclusions from those observations, as mentally challenging. I consider it life.
Even animals, make conclusions based on past observations.
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Post by shagnasty on Sept 12, 2007 10:08:09 GMT -6
will work if no one else in the area, but if someone else is there and run and guns it, you could be awhile waiting to catch something.
disclaimer: general statement directed at any target species.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 12, 2007 10:48:36 GMT -6
I'd agree with that.
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Post by Traveler on Sept 12, 2007 11:10:08 GMT -6
I think the number 1 location in any chunk of country will be what Bill Nelson referred to as "the point of entry" or "port of exit".No matter where a coyote hunts within this given range....if there is an entry point and primary exit point.......this location will catch the maximum number of coyotes with the smallest number of traps and work.
I for one would love to have 40 of these locations,good weather and 4 months to have steel in the ground.
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Post by walkercoonhunter(Aaron L.) on Sept 12, 2007 11:16:44 GMT -6
so would this point of entry and port of exit be considered a travel route?would have to be if your saying a multi number of animals are useing this....
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Post by Traveler on Sept 12, 2007 11:26:46 GMT -6
Excatly Walker......excatly !!!!
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Post by Zagman on Sept 12, 2007 11:46:44 GMT -6
I guess I am saying that while I dont think about core or fringe per se, I DO DO DO try to find the locations I mentioned earlier which I assume you are talking about as far as areas of concentraion, i.e, calf dumps, hog dumps, major blockages, major travel ways, etc.
If I didnt look for those, then I'd have 8-9-10 classic locations per farm and I'd have traps on every farm vs. spreading out a bit. What Pete Leggett called "trapping against yourself".
What I DONT believe is that these attractions mentioned above just so happen to be at the confluence of several groups of coyotes fringe territories everytime......rather, that through vocalizations, scent marking, scavengers, etc, coyotes are pulled from further away than just the neighboring territories. Perhaps right through the heart of some other coyote families core area, if you will.
Miranda used to advocate finding permissions backwards, i.e, find these locations on a map and then go to the farm. However, maps dont show calf dumps, houses, etc that can make or break a location.
In the end, find a major travel way, like Mr. Craig's river, with a major blockage (town) and then find a specific interest point there like a calf dump, and something will happen.
Trouble is, with a new family group every 5 square miles or so, I'd only have three locations set up if I only set those!
You said it yourself, you eliminated your one coyote per farm areas...the only way you can do that is to trap an area for a while to figure it out. If you are telling me you can pinpoint those spots WITHOUT trapping them, then you really are on to something.
Since I dont trap long enough to enjoy the late dispersal, I have to take it to the family groups. On a particular farm, I still look for multiple travel ways intersecting at a point of interest.......and in general, I assume I will be working one family group for my short duration there.
Zagman
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Post by shagnasty on Sept 12, 2007 12:44:36 GMT -6
what is late dispersal and is fur condition still at a level to warrant pursuance?
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Post by Zagman on Sept 12, 2007 14:10:20 GMT -6
dispersal during out 6 week long deer gun season and then on into the winter and ensuing 150-200 inches of snow we get when I don't/can't trap.
The past two winters, we had mild January's and I was able to run some sets before and after work and was amazed at the results.....
But yes, January and February coyotes around here have about a 20-30% or higher rub rate, so its a crap shoot on quality.
MZ
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Post by walkercoonhunter(Aaron L.) on Sept 12, 2007 14:17:01 GMT -6
zag im glad you said that....i have been thinking about it and the way i trap is 100% on with what you have said....kinda what i was trying to say but i guess i was talking the long way round things....i didnt know how to explain what i look for and the way i trap...but you summed it up....
shag here our dispersal is about 3-4 week of december when its in full swing....the same time as breeding season...i have found by trapping in this time that i catch more male fox than anything...as far as the fur quality this is iffy on the reds...but our greys and yotes sure do look pretty that time of year...
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Post by scott kimball on Sept 12, 2007 20:41:02 GMT -6
i go into a area if it looks coyote to me i get permission to trap.i then trap it .if it produces that season i go back next season.if not well see ya.this is what i call a process of elimination trapping LOL.
Steve i did have 2 locations last year that i caught 20 coyotes in that may have been a mile and a half apart. on one end a calf dump on the other end i haven't figured it out yet but i am saying multiple families yes.why?? maybe it was the center of seven different farms with rolling hills and hard wood lots etc..but i did not find it by looking for it from some type of previous experience.if i knew where 10 of these location where i would be in great shape.
i do agree that you catch 50% of your coyotes on just a few of your farm but it took you alot of farms w/1 coyote to find that location.those location just don't stick out like a sore thumb.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 12, 2007 21:13:07 GMT -6
Zags- I think we are saying the same thing- or seeing the same resultsi nany case.
Mt conclusion is that its multiple overlaps.
yours is What I DONT believe is that these attractions mentioned above just so happen to be at the confluence of several groups of coyotes fringe territories everytime......rather, that through vocalizations, scent marking, scavengers, etc, coyotes are pulled from further away than just the neighboring territories. Perhaps right through the heart of some other coyote families core area, if you will.
a just as logical theory as mine- but both based on what we see as results.
in either case, we know that such locations, produce multiple groups.
and its relatively easy, to see the factors that make it so.
Do I only trap these? of course not- but when a duplicate type location "springs" up- I have had good luck in getting good results. 3 of my top 5 locations, were picked using my criteria.
and good areas would alo, attract those 60% that don't defend terriory- the nomads if you will.
And let me re-define my point- I'm not hard and fast on them being overlapping territories, but am comfortable in calling it neutral territory, which I have characterized as such many times before in these discussions. Bottomline- its where groups overlap- be it territory or neutral.
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Post by shagnasty on Sept 13, 2007 5:36:50 GMT -6
i cant start trapping even remotely serious until mid-january here because of deer hunters and their hounds. i usually trap until the end of february but mainly water animals, the land animals i catch have always looked pretty good through february here minus the oddball. mainly catching grays so im sure the odds are in my favor.
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Post by wheelie on Sept 13, 2007 6:17:22 GMT -6
From the begining of this post: 1) a coyote travels the outer fringes of his territory more My reply: No a coyote travels to where the food is moreI seen a demo by this person this past year (When in Minnesota FTA).......I only sat through about 10 mins. of the demo and had about 10 things that I disagreed with him or thought was over fluffed in that time frame, so just walked off smileing........but hay, its his show and he is a "Showmen". Seems like a nice guy and is very entertaining.......I'm sure he has caught a coyote before, so is more than qualified
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Post by trappnman on Sept 13, 2007 6:36:39 GMT -6
I like Daves response- that if he travelled the fringe more, it wouldn't be the fringe.
Let me throw this into the discussion- studies show that 60% or more of coyotes, have no territory. Territory defined as defended territory. Of course, nomad's have a range.
Now- would you think that nomads would then travel at the fringes of OTHERS defended territory? Or have free use through it? (and yes, how would we know- its speculation folks- no more, no less)
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