Rod17
Demoman...
Posts: 229
|
Post by Rod17 on Aug 20, 2007 21:06:17 GMT -6
Thanks Dwaine!
RD
|
|
|
Post by JWarren on Aug 21, 2007 19:38:11 GMT -6
JW, just curious, it sounds like you are questioning Marty's BAD, in holding coyotes and releasing deer? Or am I reading this wrong. I've run his BAD, an Elite 265 I believe.....I have killed one deer, while I've caught several.......easily 12-15 in the last 2 seasons, and the BAD has worked as prescribed. All but a very few coyotes have been DOA! take it as you wish, in my limited observations a neck snared deer falls over like struck by lightning without disturbing the vegetation. I would guess you only caught the one by the neck.
|
|
|
Post by Bristleback on Aug 21, 2007 22:49:20 GMT -6
Straight up honest facts from my line.
JW, what BAD do you prefer on a long snare, extension and cam lock, if you use that type of set up.
My coyote snares are 6-7' long, extensions are 8-12', chained cam and an Elite 265 BAD and a Stinger.....I need to look and make sure they are the 265. This kind of length.......gives the deer and coyotes all kinds of room=momentum if it's in the "open"......coyotes engage the Stinger=dead, deer open the BAD.
In cover, entanglement and running a SHORT SNARE SET UP......I can sure see where a BAD would struggle to open......
Long snare set up and no entanglement=momentum to allow the BAD to function..........Entanglement/short snare set up......we are expecting sheer POWER to open up the BAD........=issues.
|
|
|
Post by JWarren on Aug 21, 2007 23:31:41 GMT -6
I agree with what you are saying and agree with the setup owever if I had a bad that released neck caught deer on a regular basis it would be releasing coyotes for me all the time. The problem with deer is they might just walk to the end of the cable and lean into it until they fall over dead or they might go full steam. I think A coyote usually hits the end of the cable violently and repreatedly more reliably which makes up for the size difference somewhat.
I've been using homemade cable bads. Interestingly, I tested my 1/16 and 5/64 strand bads on a straight pull on a fancy force tester and they were breaking at way higher than one would think (over 200 lbs straight pull=way higher than 295 loop pull) so I might have to change my setup depending on what the state decides for a test/machine. Maybe something to be cautious about if you are using the cable strand method with the states just now getting test machines to check legality. Never lost a yote on these bads and never held a deer by the leg but they may end up being illegal (too heavy) when all is said and done. Another thing I found on a force tester is that the spring makes no difference in final break weight. As you crank it down the spring bottoms out early and you keep cranking until it breaks at about the same weight as w/o spring. I've heard that the spring changes the BAD break weight but didn't find that to be the case. The spring might kill quicker preventing the bad from being worked as much but final weight doesnt change.
|
|
|
Post by Bristleback on Aug 22, 2007 0:17:58 GMT -6
Thanks JW, always interesting to learn what others use. I know some mighty fine snaremen who use the strands of cable as BAD and htere's sure no reason to question their sucess. I've just opted to use the Shook style and find is very quick to assemble.
JW, have your ran any of Marty's BADs?
Testing BADs.........now there's a topic. Sure wish there was a collective industry standard. I've sure not played with testing BADs.
|
|
|
Post by JWarren on Aug 22, 2007 18:31:29 GMT -6
JW, have your ran any of Marty's BADs? nope, i'm not paying anybody more for a little s hook than the whole rest of the snare costs, nothing personal to him
|
|
Rod17
Demoman...
Posts: 229
|
Post by Rod17 on Aug 22, 2007 19:59:05 GMT -6
The fancy factory testers, most of which produce a slow constant pull, or gradually add weight until mechanical failure is reached, likely have little to no relevance to field conditions. Herein lies the problem with States setting any kind of regulations about BAD break away points. There is little to no correlation between dymanic force and static force for mechanical failure.
Most animals when caught will pull like crazy in all directions; their momentum creates dynamic force. No way to recreate the required variables without getting into alot of cost. I have been working on this issue for awhile and I can tell you, to do it right will be pricey. They (the States) may find a cheap way to "standardize" BAD testing but, it will be meaningless given the all the variables.
|
|
|
Post by rk660 on Aug 22, 2007 21:05:17 GMT -6
"Chaining cam-locks" there was a toothed cam type snare lock built in the late 20's -early 30's, saw a pic someone posted of it once. Probibly "re-invented" by some poor WY or MT cowboy/trapper. Major supply/lure maker got ahold of it and tryed to disquise "cutting teeth in cam locks" with "chained locks" to promote more $70 video sales/top secret aura, my guess. Not much super top secret/only known to very few select elite/illuminati/secret handshake/told only in secret ceriemony w/ black cloaks and human sacrifice any more, in fact most is 30-60 years old when you get to the bottom of it. Some guys, even when they have good/better than ave products to begn with, get caught up in the "promotional" end of this stuff. maybe they are just very smart marketeers, as some guys really eat anything eluding to "top secret" up. Ya know the old saying...."you can only skin an animal once......but you can skin a _____....... "
|
|
|
Post by Bristleback on Aug 22, 2007 21:35:41 GMT -6
WOW, 1920-30's......cool, one of those things the first time I saw it........duh, that makes sense.
JW, I know what you mean as far as the price on some items, but if it's quality and is consistent, gives you the desired results, confidence...........is it worth it.......I sure think so, now if there is something equally as reliable, convenient, proven....etc etc I'd sure listen. Some folks balk at the $1 each on the Stingers........at first I was a lil growly.........until I tried them, they allow me to snare coyotes, that I have serious concerns other setups would allow me to do the same. I have yet to retire one........had a few tweeked a little by deer, but they are ready and in the lineup. I ran the mini coiled springs for a couple years......did the 27# then 50# thing, sure beat not using a dispatch spring......but the LINEAR design of the Stinger is, so far more efficient.......AND I have more than a few handfulls of contorted, twisted, bent, spent mini coiled up springs that got to bat one time...........I know of some Stingers that have laid down 7 coyotes and still hitting.........now which is more affordable? Good conversation guys, chime in........
|
|
|
Post by SteveCraig on Aug 23, 2007 7:53:32 GMT -6
Rich, Keith Gregerson showed me how to take a 3-corner file to the then "new" camlock right after it first came out, that Lonnie Huber "invented". 4 or 5 strokes and it would lock up really tight on cable. Pain in the butt to do this way and far easier with the Brownell File. As far as I am concerned Keith was light years ahead on locks, cable, and methods.
A funny story on ole Keith.......... We were at a Kentucky FTA convention in Land-Between- the -Lakes. Several of us were sitting around the camp fire telling the usual stories, when Keith asked me, "what is that that keeps "sparking" out there in that field. We all looked around, and didnt notice anything out of the ordinary. I asked what sparks? All of a sudden I finally noticed lightning bugs!!!!!!!!!! Keith had never seen one! I guess they dont have them in Montana! All of us got a good laugh that evening. Keith is one of my mentors. so I dont hink he would mind me telling this story! Steve
|
|
|
Post by rk660 on Aug 23, 2007 14:53:58 GMT -6
Havent seen Keith in a few, last time i saw him he was wearing those funky looking safety/sunglasses. Had all kinds of knives and some with built in lights. Think he was doing as good on kiddie piggy bank money as he was on cable, LOL. Your right about him being ahead of his time. He had leg snaring figured out when most guys were trying to figure out how to get a loop on a neck. Another was that Larry Whitman out of ND, had a very good snare book years ago, then they outlawed snaring for a spell in ND i think and he faded away. Rememeber Keith's solid wood cone coyote fleshing beams, used with a drywall knife to saw off all that heavy grizzle fron them heavy MT coyotes.
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 24, 2007 14:55:34 GMT -6
As discussed if your neck snaring deer and getting a release on a high% then your going to loose coyotes! You can't have your cake and eat it too, when it comes to neck snared deer the pressure needed and release point is far different than a leg caught deer.
|
|
|
Post by Danny Clifton on Aug 25, 2007 12:35:42 GMT -6
Wasn't ignoring this post. Work all week just got back on here. I've been using a mini lock. Almost allways where there is entanglement. I've had dead deer. But not all of them. I don't put a spring on my snares. Often a deer is gasping a bit but still alive. BTW don't think I ever read as much snare info as I have on this post.
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 25, 2007 14:29:22 GMT -6
Not trying to belittle your setup, but if you have deer gasping which isn't good, then with that body weight it tell's me your locks are not setup for a lethal killing situation for coyotes either?
The spring adds the tension and adding "teeth" keeps any backoff of the lock from happing, the 2 together is what makes such a great killing situation for snaring coyotes, the more open the terrain the more added benefit one sees from the spring/teeth. exspecially those with more thick furred/fat necked winter coyotes. Summer coyotes don't give near the fight winter ones can, due to body condition.
|
|
|
Post by Danny Clifton on Aug 26, 2007 6:42:52 GMT -6
38 I'm not sure where in west ks you are but if its out in that short grass praire country its a lot different than where I am. In fact Ive had very little luck with snares in short grass, most of the time they just walk around them. When trapping the wesern part of Ks I use very few snares relying instead on foot traps. Here in east Ks its a lot of brushy areas and tall grass. If snaring in tall grass I fasten the snare to a drag. Fur ends up in brush, hedgerows etc. The coyotes tangle and most are dead. With our 24 hour check law a few live ones are not a big deal. The whole point to my original narrative was that you often catch this years fawn instead of adult deer in a snare. Especially neck snared deer. These fawns often can not produce enough pull to cause the B.A.D. to release.
|
|
Rod17
Demoman...
Posts: 229
|
Post by Rod17 on Aug 26, 2007 10:45:49 GMT -6
So, back to the guts of the question, and in order to sumamrize the experience that's posted here: "whats the best BAD for relaeasing deer but holding coyotes?"
1. I am I correct in summarizing that I neck snared deer is in big trouble regardless of the BAD that's used...let's say anything with breakway poundage of 250 on up? deer will die, coyote will die?
2. neck snared and leg snared ungulates are totally different, in terms of force they can exhert to escape? most BADs will likely release a leg caught deer?
3. I dont see any consensus on they type of BAD (j-hook, release ferrule, break way cam lock ect) in tems of real efficacy?
4. take home message: avoid situtations where neck snaring deer is likely - high fences with crawl unders?
What else would you all add to this summary?
Thanks
Randy
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 26, 2007 14:32:45 GMT -6
I don't like the pull off ferral as that works into efficantcy as looking for parts. Give me a s hook BAD and you have everything on the cable yet to either replace bad and reset the same snare or take back cut off parts to use as a rebuild.
The pop off ferrals will have you spending time looking for locks and kill springs if used. J-hooks IMHO are to big and bulky, I like the s hook type in the small/medium range. I have had deer pop the miller s-hook and with pliers rebent them back on and caught coyotes that held. While I don't recommend this for all popped s-hooks if needed they will work, again these are with all kill springs and cam's with teeth. The majority get replaced, as I try and keep some extras in a zip lock bag in my pocket when walking down in draws and the truck is further away.
I find the 1x19 cable to be able to take the leg caught deer and reusing the cable again with new s-hook in some situations. Much better than 7x7 and way more chew and fight resistant.
|
|
|
Post by Sage Dog on Aug 26, 2007 16:40:28 GMT -6
Bristleback,
What exactly is "chaining"? Does that just refer to filing teeth on the camlock?
|
|
|
Post by coyotewhisperer on Aug 26, 2007 17:02:08 GMT -6
Yes it is filing teeth
I think OG coined the term so even if you heard it you wouldn't know what it was unless you bought a video of his to figure it out. He had this in his snaring video long before it ever was on a internet trapping forum.
Jeff
|
|
|
Post by rk660 on Aug 26, 2007 22:01:08 GMT -6
Like i said earlyer, teeth in a cam type lock has been around since the 20's, so really NO ONE in these current modern times can lay claim to "teeth in cam locks"
And Im not trying to offend or piss anyone off here, its just the truth of the matter deserves to be known.
|
|