Kick this theory around for awhile......

[Zagman]

That is why I said during trapping season, it is hard to do.

Not many people set two IDENTICAL sets right next to each other except the PA fox guys....

I do like you do, often, one on each side of the road.

But even if they are right next to each other, you have the wind taking both smells out, and while he might be attacted to the further smell, he hits the other set first, and bang.

Wind direction, animal direction, VISUALS (i.e a dirthole next to a blended flat set, or a skunk in set #1) etc still are variables that just won't allow a person to come up with FACTUAL comparisons....general conclusion, yes.

Heck, even if you made two dirtholes, one cannot say that they are identical....backing size, hole size, dirt color, etc. Gosh, then you start throwing in individual coyotes and their mindset that night or mood.......

So, to be clear....this is not an argument. In my opinion, in a real-world trapping situation, it is nearly impossible to create a true, side-by-side comparison of one lure vs. another.

When they do the tests on lures, they do try to make identical testing stations with simply a round dirt pattern and a lure holder in the middle

Never said I dont need lure, I just think I could use any good quality manufacturer's product and have similiar results. Won't see me putting hot dogs down a hole any time soon.

When it gets right down to it, the attractant that I use the most produces the most......simple math, I reckon.

Zagman

[trappnman]

don't you think that having a large sample- with as identical as possible, that a pattern would emerge?

I find it does.

I've told how I started using stefs lures, but ?I'll repeat it.

I was using 100% Milligans lures- and liked them. When I got the collaring job, I of course wanted those coyotes, so I made all my sets with Milligans. At this time, not knowng stef, he sent me some lure to try. I made my good locations, my best sets I felt, with Milligans. Then oh yes, was going to test this lure...so would slap in a set- usually 2,3,4 best location.

Stefs, with just a few sets made overall, took the majority of coyotes.

So my conclusion was not that it would catch more- but that it was worked first. And if it was worked first, my logic said it attracted "more".

not to say that I would not have taken about the same coyotes just on the Milligans, becasue I think I would have...

but...side to side, one did produce more, simply because it was worked first.

Its what I judge other lures by. And some lures produce as well- in side to side- and some less.
as a fyi, I got a bottle of the stuff they use on test circles for population counts. White tablets. Not much smell at all to my nose.

[Bob Jameson]

I must say from experience that numbers, location ,seasoned experience and work ethic take precedence over lure and bait. I am a formulator but have always said in an honest and sincere tone that it the man that makes a lure great and not the other way around.

I put my money on an experienced trapper with an average run lure then I would with a new green horn trapper with the $20 an ounce of product labeled magic in a bottle.

This is not to say that there are not significant differences in quality and experience that has gone into some great products available today.Because there are worlds of difference in some products that are made for a few bucks and those that cost a bundle to formulate. This is not saying the lesser cost product is always significantly inferior.However the overall attractiveness of one lure can be significantly better do to the compounding and blending of certain elements that can and will dictate more time vested at your set by an animal due to these other elements found in a formula.

For example the percentage of glands, the quality of urine used in a formula, the amount of filler vs actives ageing, preseving etc. There are some real cheap dollar wise products out there no doubt. But the reality of it all is that they will work to some degree. They may not stand up to some other products through the test of time but nonetheless they will work. Some inexperienced individual will never know the difference besides a name and an odor recognition. He just knows it has worked for him in the past.

I agree with Mark that lure and bait evaluation on a level playing field is extremely difficult to do. Any variation that may take place from wind direction, set location, set visuals, pattern vs no pattern etc can affect the data results. How much you use a product vs another are you using and comparing gland vs gland, food call vs food call, urines vs urines etc. Massageing the data is so easy to do as is misinterpretation if one is looking to put the best case scenario forward for purposes of advertising or self acclaim.


There is alot of good honest and factual as I know it to be,expression in this post and one I am pleased to see discussed.

[mostinterestingmanintheworld]

Why use any lure?

That is the current place I am in with my cat trapping.

I have been asking myself that question quite a lot lately.

I think the lure is counterproductive in a walkthrough set.

How many of you lure a trail snare?

As far as coyotes go I think there are places where lure is counterproductive as well.

I've caught coyotes with unbaited dirtholes just because I wanted to say I did it. They worked fine.

I've caught them with real subtle stuff like coyote water as well.

Using prominent attractors like a transplanted clump of grass in a dry stock dam works with very little if any odor if there is a main attraction nearby to get them circling.

How many of you have looked a tracks in the snow of a circling coyote? It's pretty predictable on what he's gonna do while circling. He'll go over by things that stand out a bit while he's watching whatever drew him in, but he's wary of walking right up to.

Joel

[bobwendt]

I think you could blow snot on a grass clump or down a dirt hole and catch a coyote, or crap on/in it, in fact I`m sure of it. anyway, after you all get done figuring how to send a coyote or fox to the moon and back, I can tell you how to catch twice as many in the same hrs. but it will be harder for you , i.e. it will be more work and less talk, lol!

[trappnman]

and yet, aren't you the same person who says he doesn't need guiding "because of what I put in the hole?"

and yes, we al know of te farmer that wired a bare trap to a combine and caught a coyote...

aren't we talking ways to mazimise the catch?

your next trip west- just blow snot on the sets- no lure, no urine. it should be the same, right?

[bobwendt]

no, you missed my point entirely. let me rephrase, catching canines isn`t rocket science,it`s easy. catching lots of them isn`t rocket science either, it`s hard work.

[ohiyotee]

No body said they did not need guiding , they said make a set that in its self guides the animal with a minimum of effort .

doesn't the minimum effort maximize the return?

[trappnman]

does it?

you can count 100 pennies by 1s, and get a dollar.

or, you can count them by 5s....

in making a set, if I leave a dirt ridge, or make a slanted bed, or place a pebble- if its all guidng, what difference does the WHAT matter?

and Bob- I have to agree with your last statement, as its true. BUT- I also think lure is an important part of success.

[ohiyotee]

Placing a pebble is a lot easier than finding a cheek guide and transplanting it were ever the creative side of you wants to . It all boils down to style , i guess my style is if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[trappnman]

yes, it all comes down to preference.

I don't use many cheek guides, but yet they are all over (the right type weed stems. But I often take advantage of natural stuff like that in making the set.

I often make a stepdown 2-3 feet back into set aside- the tall grasses/weeds around the set are perfect cheek and upper body guides.

[Sage Dog]

When a coyote leaves his marker, presumably other coyotes can specifically identify him from it, and know who is (or was) in the area.

Then man comes along and sprays on commercial urine that is a blend from perhaps 50 or more different coyotes. It must be really confusing!

[Bob Jameson]

On a territorial marking scent projection or object for cats or canines how many animals do you think have used it prior or after their last visit.Thats the essence of a marking scent. It is to invite others to mark as well.

Typically after storm fronts and heavy rains it is my theory that canines mark frequently along their travels around their routes to re establish their domain. Others that happen along will do the same or just smell the object and may establish their own marking area on a selected object or thing just feet away if they wish to be identified as boss or ?itch dog.

There is alot of marking going on out there that some dont really relate to quite yet.Some canines mark on top of anothers scent while some just smell and go. Either way it will get investigated by travelers. I dont buy the single scent theory except for specialty type applications to attract or catch a particular animal or a family unit specific to an area that will recognize that particular odor as being one of prior association.

[johnthomas]

my thinking is a different lure or bait can make a great deal of difference, if for no other to have something new to use in the same area, rks bait is almost fought over in this area since he began selling it, everyone is usin it and they rave about it or keep it a deep dark secret, the difference in these fellows catches when they switched was amazin, they had been using hawbakers cat lure, or some castor, or some catmando everyyear for years, i only know of one guy that burtned out on it and he was on ground he heavily trapped the year before and all the pups died off befor season opened, now he did have some trouble, but lack of fur was a large part of that is my thinking ass well as educated adults from the year before, a good fresh new lure and or bait can be quite an asset looks to me like at times, if not then why does bob jameson make so many different ones that all accomplish the same thing, for example he makes a fine bait im told that really gets them, yet he also makes a fine lure thats called coyote cream or something like that does the same thing, must be some reason he makes several different ones.

[trappnman]

the reasons for different smells, is that trappers are impaitant- LOl

bcasue not al ltihngs trigger the interest repsonse all the time. A coyote may walk by one set righti nto another.

Not so sure on the burnout- I caught several collared coyotes a year later with the same lures on the same farms.

Maybe some, but I always felt that some thing that attracts will do so time and again. But who knows?

[Bob Jameson]

I have found over the years that something new, stacking different odors and competition can be hard on a trapper at times. By my mixing up things I can keep things new,different and interesting to a canine. The use of a good one or two lures and a good bait and urine will take alot of animals the first time through an area. But when you go into the long haul in a pre trapped area I have found that changing up lures, baits and presentations will keep the action coming.

Working a new area with little competition and good numbers the basics will do just fine. But more and more areas I hit have been trapped weeks or at times a month or more before I roll into a run of farms or ranches.Foxes arent much of an issue but coyotes can keep on walking with a stagnant set up and some familiar run odors. They recognize and figure things out pretty quick at times at least here in the East. You can tell from their behavior that they have been toyed with or had some prior experience. So I mix things up more then most and I have done very well with that method over the years.

You are correct any one of my products would more then likely do the job alone with a little mix up of things thrown in now and then.But playing on their sense of curiosity and presenting different odors and set presentations beyond the dirt hole will keep them guessing and interested by and large.