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Post by Traveler on Aug 20, 2007 16:30:34 GMT -6
One thing I've watched coyotes do with different lures is.....take a good long sniff........then switch positions and do the same thing again.Naturally on some of these lures I have no idea how many ingredients was in the lure.Others.....I have because it was my own formula. I guess what I'm saying is that I believe certain odors will cause a coyote to "take a different angle" in trying to identify some of the odors within that lure. One such ingredient is white thyme oil.I've seen 'em inhale until it looked like they was gonna pass out.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 20, 2007 16:41:14 GMT -6
well, a deeper hole will cause them to dig- but shouldn't you have him by then?
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Post by Traveler on Aug 20, 2007 16:51:32 GMT -6
I think you'll all ready have them before they start diggin'.Simply because I believe a coyote will produce enough foot movement checking out the lure before he ever starts diggin'.
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Post by scott kimball on Aug 20, 2007 17:15:42 GMT -6
yes , i believe a coyote goes into a ( for lack of better term ) spastic mode when it wants something and cant get at it causing it to move erratically at the set.
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Post by rk660 on Aug 21, 2007 7:19:45 GMT -6
Zag, some of the best stuff I ve ever used was all these 1/3 full bottles I mixed together, most with worn off labels, all that stuff you dont even know what it is. called it mystery lure
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Post by Jeffrey on Aug 21, 2007 10:18:40 GMT -6
Here's a thought, at the next trapper get together, some one should start a bowl and every trapper that wants to bring their favorate lure and dump it in. At the end rebottle it and pass it out, should work great. ;D
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Post by mostinterestingmanintheworld on Aug 21, 2007 10:25:46 GMT -6
I think that if a coyote is hungry a food odor is more attractive than if he's not. I know I'm that way, if I've just had lunch and someone brings a sub sandwich into the office I find the smell almost nauseating where an hour before it might have made me salivate.
I think that depending what is on his mind will determine how he works a set.
If he's a pup that just got his ass kicked during dispersal maybe he smells old dog phermones he doesn't stay long at the set.
An old dog that just kicked the pups ass may react 180 opposite.
As far as a coyote being able to pick apart odors I have no doubt that they can but does that mean that a multi ingredient lure isn't just a one ingredient smell?
I mean he doesn't walk over there and say man there is some deer meat aged to perfection with some beaver castor in it, and oh a hint of tonquin to boot.
He says there's something that interests me. One smell.
Different than another one smell multi ingredient lure.
My 2 cents.
Joel
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Post by trappnman on Aug 21, 2007 12:02:07 GMT -6
but its not "one smell". Its one source.....
why does Thankgsgiving smell so good?
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Post by CoonDuke on Aug 21, 2007 12:07:40 GMT -6
Certain ingredients when mixed create a chemical reaction which form a "new" odor totally different from the odor of the parent materials.
I am in the camp that we really don't know what a canine in smelling when they sniff a lure.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 21, 2007 12:12:34 GMT -6
we are all in that camp CoonDuke- but if we can smell separate oders in lures, its obvious cnaines can do so in less quantities. Some are new, some are the original- but the lure would still, I think, cause reaction on a couple of levels.
What does gland lure tell a coyote?
or skunk lure alone?
now both together.
Add blood from a remake.....
urine...
Man, I'd stick my nose there...
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Post by CoonDuke on Aug 21, 2007 15:18:08 GMT -6
Well, this is totally my opinion only, but I really believe a most lures don't really "tell" a canine anything! It is a compound of chemicals that MAY arouse interest and MAY cause a reaction. There are a few basic chemicals that are attractive. Whether canines are "imprinted" at birth to be attracted to these chemicals is specutation on my part, but I believe they are. There are countless examples where animals are genetically imprinted to be attracted to certain chemicals. Without a doubt, canines learn odors throughout their life, but I doubt many lures accurately represent these odors...and even so, the odors they "learn" could very well be initiated by genetic imprinting.
Scavengers are programmed to be responsive to chemicals like putrestrine and cadaverine (sp) which are the chemical associated with rotting flesh.
Fishy odors are the result of amines and predators are attractive to amine odors. I really don't think a canine thinks there is a fish down the dirthole...he is attracted to the basic chemicals in the lure. There are many canines that have never encountered a fish when trapping season rolls around.
Skunk, asafoetida, and mink musk are sulfide odors. Estrous urine develops a stronger sulfide odor in canines. I really believe canines are imprinted to be attractive to sulfides...even though pups have not yet had a breeding season.
Beaver castor contains ketones which are attractive to canines. At least in my area, 99% of canines have never even come in contact with a beaver...yet castor is attractive.
Cats are genetically imprinted to react to nepetalactone, the chemical in catnip. It has nothing to do with the odor we as humans detect in the catnip plant!
I feel an exception to this is urine and to an extent gland lures. These are odors that canines use in everyday communication. In other words, when we squirt urine on a tuft of grass, I think a canine who encounters it think another of his kinds was there and marked.
We read in books about if you use mink musk, a canine thinks a mink was there and cached something. Or if we use skunk musk, a canine thinks there was a skunk there eating and there is an easy meal...I think we are giving canines too much credit and believing they have a thought process the same as humans.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 21, 2007 20:18:50 GMT -6
agreed- I don't think prepared lures tell him anything- but I do think they pique his interest, some more than others- and certain odors, like you say,. provide different reactions.
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Post by rk660 on Aug 21, 2007 22:08:37 GMT -6
probibly most guys super duper favorite lure they always reach for, because they did 8 for 10 on once upon a time, means once upon a time they where DAMN good at picking locations. dont get me wrong, there are good, and so so attractors. but truth be known when someone hits a real good streak, it was as much good weather making them move like crazy, good job setting up on super fresh sign, etc, etc, as it was what they poured out of the bottle many times. bottle prolly had something to do with it, but most guys just remember the bottle, and not all the other factors that led to their uncanny sucess once upon a time. Also, lady luck, that capritous very *friendly* person, can and will work in mysterious ways at times, clouding one's view of reality. at times one must not view the good or bad luck that this very *friendly* person will throw at ya, that clouds the truth of the whole matter. miles and miles down the road make judging fact from random chance more apparent.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 22, 2007 5:18:06 GMT -6
while that might be true for some, I think for many, at least for me, its a side to side comparison.
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Post by Zagman on Aug 22, 2007 5:50:13 GMT -6
In a true trapping situation, I find it hard to give any lure a true, fair, unbiased test against it's peers. Off season, I could do it better, but too many other variables at a location while trapping to give a fair test.
Further, I use urine, bait, visuals, etc along with those lures.
Then there is the wind, snow, trapped animals in the other set, etc.
What about an animal being attracted to one set or smell, circling, and getting whacked in the subtle urine set while circling? Perhaps the one lure brought him in close, but lifting his leg on the subtle urine set was his downfall.
As I review my notes at the end of the season, I can come up with basic premises on successes and failures with individual products, however.
I can say that I caught 33% of my coyotes with this lure in this type of set......
BUT BUT BUT, I may have used that lure/set combination 50% of the time, so the numbers SHOULD reflect that success rate.
Like Mr. Kaspar, I believe my success or lack of success year to year has very little to do with my attractants.
In other words, I think if I used 100% products by Stef this year, and then used 100% from OGorman or Kaspar or Jameson or Carmen or Brian Roberts the next year on that same line, my numbers would be similiar, assuming animal populations being constant and decent weather.
No offense to you lure maker types......just my opinion.
Zagman
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Post by 17HMR on Aug 22, 2007 5:57:24 GMT -6
I agree wiyh Zag, most lure and bait makers are putting out good or better product. The rest boils down to location and sweat, but after sayig that, you still have to feel good about what you are useing or you might not have the right mindset.
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Post by bobwendt on Aug 22, 2007 5:59:48 GMT -6
ya, what those guys above said.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 22, 2007 6:00:26 GMT -6
if oy umake 2 sets side by side- identical except for lure, you should see a pattern. Yes, each specific test set could have vairables, but take 25, 30 such sets, and if 1 is hit substantially more than the other, then that lure attracts MORE.
However, that doesn't mean that they wouldn't hit the second set if it was the only one there.
I believe some lures provide more responses.
Why use any lure? a hot dog provides food- and if on location.........
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Post by trappincoyotes39 on Aug 22, 2007 6:08:42 GMT -6
what about getting certain responses? M-44's baits/lures come to mind a lot of good trap scents make poor getter scents, as you don't get the bite pull response from these that is needed. It takes certain ingredients to get this response. a lot are food based for sure. Some are not.
You can do the same I believe with lures, time of the year, what age class coyotes your working etc. Joel had a lot of good points in his above post. One lure maker has stated that the toughest thing he has ever tried and spent the most time with are good consistent m-44 baits and lures, some are decent and others flops.
I think pup's and yoy of year coyotes will work many lure/smells and adults Jan/March can spazz out on certain lure types and I find large baits to offer a good attraction as it fits in naturally at that time of year making for a social gathering spot. Is this baiting or luring? I would say yes.
Gotta run.
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Post by trappnman on Aug 22, 2007 6:12:49 GMT -6
it is proven that coyotes react differently to different ingriedients- working a set more aggressively and longer with certain odors more so than other odors.
several lure makers use this knowledge in making their lures- using ingriedients that provoke the more aggressive responses.
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