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Post by bobwendt on Jul 9, 2007 17:38:40 GMT -6
hehe. it`s all those new methane and oil workers from kentuckylvanialina, and those other weird countries. boy, here`s a gun and 5,000 bullets, go see if`n you can get something dead
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Post by trappnman on Jul 9, 2007 19:20:51 GMT -6
well---they sure didn't kill many...LOL
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 10, 2007 5:13:57 GMT -6
you`d be surprised. they don`t kill them out, but they trash the yoy well.
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Post by JWarren on Jul 10, 2007 11:19:32 GMT -6
hehe. it`s all those new methane and oil workers from kentuckylvanialina, and those other weird countries. boy, here`s a gun and 5,000 bullets, go see if`n you can get something dead They sure are whacking the big game animals. Not much to do if you're an easterner stuck in the WY desert besides get drunk and shoot anything that moves. The majority of poaching cases in the last 5 years are all energy workers. Some of them only got caught because they had out of season goats hanging in the bunk house where everyone lives. Most of them shoot and leave them lay and never get caught. As far as the pathfinder, no drilling there. Public access is somewhat limited, and the area is one of the more remote places so opportunistic shooting is probably less of a factor there.
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Post by 17HMR on Jul 11, 2007 10:56:51 GMT -6
Well Bob..........?
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 11, 2007 12:16:11 GMT -6
I`m still holding off. . I know others know.
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Post by ohiyotee on Jul 11, 2007 12:49:18 GMT -6
If your good they just aren't there
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Post by stickbowhntr on Jul 11, 2007 13:01:19 GMT -6
if they were there they will be again from the migration .No matter how good, they will move back in, each year a new crop unless topography changes a bunch(i.e.- new roads or a damn or even developments).what supprted them and drew them the first time will contuinue, am I right Bob?
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Post by trappnman on Jul 11, 2007 13:20:53 GMT -6
Heres something that has always puzzled me.
Lets say you have a good location. You catch both adults and YOY o na yearly basis in good numbers.
One year, that place is zip. Other surrounding locations are normal.
The following year- its back to normal.
I've thought its just as simple as for whatever reason- the local pair didn't raise any pups, one or both kille,d etc.
But most of thel ocations I am talking about- SEEM at least to have enough adults to be different groups.
Any thoughts?
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Post by stickbowhntr on Jul 11, 2007 13:32:23 GMT -6
the first year movement is the one that the fox disperse the furthest from home. Maybe the adults downrange got wacked or otherwise died and that ebbed the movement in for a year by the pups. Remember the pups moving in are coming anywhere from 10 = 30 miles so somebody as good as you got to them and the pups just never cam the next year as adults were taken later and had established a teritory so it took an extra year to fill the voids.They saw little movement ( studies) from birth thru beginning in Oct and the mass of it in Jan.
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Post by jsevering on Jul 11, 2007 15:42:23 GMT -6
other than some of what has been mentioned already...
december brings deeper snow and it could be.... to an extent... the easier food source shifts some and they are shifting with it... even if its from a former..... somewhat hot general location to just within the transition zone....jim
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Post by DaveLyons on Jul 11, 2007 19:53:59 GMT -6
I don't know the answers Bob is looking for but here is my idea.
Michigans gun deer season starts Nov.15 till the 30th.
Coyote trapping is some what tough for the next two weeks or so during this time we normally have had our first major snow 12 inches or more. I have also witnessed coyotes on the move to creek bottoms, river bottoms, or swamps. My thought is there going to the food sources crimpled, gut shot deer never found by the hunters since crimpled deer tend to go to water or heavy cover. So with food sources high and easy to get they don't bother most sets plus darn few are running the open fields anyway.
To answer one of Bob question when does the migration start personally I think first part of Dec. on coyotes end of Nov. on fox. Peak would be first of Jan. (My reason for the first of Jan.) I had a small soybean field that backed into a swamp from that soybean field there was a major funnel that went for about two miles into a creek bottom. I took 14 coyotes in 4 days from the funnel and the edge of the swamp all snared. And I took 7 coyotes from the funnel into the creek bottom in the same week.
Dave
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Post by coydog on Jul 11, 2007 20:06:40 GMT -6
This one gets me every year.
Something "happens" around the first half of December in my area, and its noticable even if Im on new coyotes. I even made a point to move into some unpressured pasture ground this past season, I know for a fact that no one was trapping coyotes anywhere near it, the bordering land(s) were getting hit hard by the orange army, and the pasture had enough area, cover, and food for them to refuge to, not to mention the crick bottom that ran through this location showed that it was a prime travelway, and coyotes were using it, and recently. This was one of them locations that gives coyote men the shakes. Set it up with traps and snares, in good locations and it was like pulling teeth to take 3 coyotes in 2 weeks. I didnt have a big line out at the time, and had time to watch the dirt, roads, trails, and other good sections in that area during this time to see if coyotes were moving. Activity was VERY little, and when I did see sign, I had a coyote or the tracks ran through the section, on no "normal" route.
Ive talked with damn good coyote trappers about this, and it always seems there is something to it.
A few things that would make sense would be coyotes are: camping on dead deer carcasses holding tight because of the pressure, to the opposite of what I used to think to be heavy cover, but out in open areas not being bombarded by hunters, maybe culverts? I dont know, maybe they grew wings and are roosting in the tallest trees.
They are definately not doing the normal travel, or at least not as often.
Maybe they are gearing towards breeding, and heading to "breeding areas", but why at the end of December, early January are they right back doing the same ole same ole?
Bob, Ive read a LOT of studies, and still havent found a definate answer, so if I missed something Im all ears.
I do notice from some of the responses that it may be different times depending on region.
I guess my answer is, I dont know for sure what happens, I have ideas, but nothing certain. But every year I tell myself to pull traps during that time and hunt mallards, but I always find myself chasing "ghost" coyotes instead, waiting for things to get normall again.
Im even getting that "thinking to hard headache" I get during that time just thinking about it.
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Post by coydog on Jul 11, 2007 20:16:38 GMT -6
Heres something that has always puzzled me.
Lets say you have a good location. You catch both adults and YOY o na yearly basis in good numbers.
One year, that place is zip. Other surrounding locations are normal.
The following year- its back to normal.
I've thought its just as simple as for whatever reason- the local pair didn't raise any pups, one or both kille,d etc.
But most of thel ocations I am talking about- SEEM at least to have enough adults to be different groups.
Any thoughts?
Im far from being the one to attempt the question, but in these areas is there a drop in available food during the years that they are dead? Better/ easier food source elsewhere?
If you killed the Adults the year before, maybe a young female shifted in , and from what Ive read, younger females are not as succesfull at raising a litter.
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Post by coydog on Jul 11, 2007 20:19:59 GMT -6
No doubt gut piles get fed on, and that deer hunters fill a lot of coyote bellies.
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Post by k9 on Jul 12, 2007 6:48:35 GMT -6
Sorry guys I have been extremely focused on an investigation and have not been on here much. I skimmed this but willnotbe able to give it the read it deserves until this weekend as it is a good topic.
Bob I will think on this some, but have always felt it to be a combination of things coming into play, and not just one thing. It starts with our shotgun deer season in which our coyotes often take to brush piles just to survive. But I think there is a ton of other factors that come into play with consistency at that time of year that lead to this behavior. I am not going to beleive that these coyotes are neccessarily smarter, because one month later I can lay them to waste, and they should by then be one month smarter.
Sorry to start a thread and then not follow through, but been swamped.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 12, 2007 8:22:38 GMT -6
I`ll post when I think it has run it`s course. lots of good comments already
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Post by jsevering on Jul 13, 2007 6:20:07 GMT -6
purely theory on my part not being educated properly in biology....
but it would also seem the females going through...starting hormonal changes and jump starting the hormones within the males .......
would alter the mind set some..... seems curiosity and the natural installed instinct to breed would be in the sexual development of other coyotes.... or like mentioned earlier a pre rut type deal in sort as the mind set for some is to look or prepare to pair up ....
seems that would effect the sexually mature percentage of a remaining family group and or shufflers....
that with other minor environmental changes and developments and it always seems your a few days behind them in your mind when it counts...at least in mine.... but like i said all theory on my part... i sucked at biology....jim
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Post by trappnman on Jul 13, 2007 6:32:59 GMT -6
if its "prerut" then its REALLY prerut.
December is at least 2, if not 3 months ahead on the coyotes coming into season. Earliest I've ever seen it here, is middle of February-
on hounds, you don't see any difference in the females nose until right before coming into season. And You don't see any behavioral changes until ten either.
Thats not to say that prerut isn't the answer, but if so, I think its a very small part of the picture.
Does this period still happen on bare ground? For me, I find it not to be so. That is, as long as it stays bare ground, I find that coyotes attitudes to be pretty much the same. But once the cover is done, and you get snow- for that first month or so, you get the behavior which is manifested to me, by being more cautious at a set.
and early snows don't seem to matter- snow that comes with most of the cover still up.
I'm sure its a combo of things- pre rut, dispersal, shorter days maybe, the advent of snow, etc.
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Post by jsevering on Jul 13, 2007 9:47:55 GMT -6
could very well be a pre...pre rut... as far as i know.. like i said im no biology major...... all theory on my part.
all i know is male coyotes arnt like male dogs....something i dont understand and dont mind being tied to the whipping post to find out...
know december has thirty one days, know jan has about the same, know by mid feb. some females are breed and took already.
seems the interest and development has to start some where and with something...
why wouldnt development and the selection process start at an earlier time, would you say the actual pairing and selection starts to take place... when the bitch is spotting, a week before...a month?
know in an actual rut one buck will breed as many does as possible..... but a male coyote isnt a male deer in..... if only so much as they help raise the litter for an example or lack of better words.......
like i said all theory on my part.... just thoughts so whip away... I want to know...... how it actually works and when it may... actually start, if possible.....jim
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