starting hounds

[trappnman]

contrary to popular views, the absolute worse way you can start a pup, is to throw it in with the older hounds. I've seen far more good hounds become poor hounds, by being started and trained this way.

While you cannot ruin a GREAT hound, you can indeed ruin good hounds.

you can start coonhounds on squrrells, and get their first training done this way- you have to get them using their nose and learning to put tracks together, before introducing them to other hounds.

use a tame bunny on beagles- or you can spend time in a good bunny population- but to start a pup, you need to show him a bunny every 5-10 minutes at least, or he gets bored, and when that happens- stop.

reason most people have trouble starting pups, is because they think they can work at it a day or two a week in a marathan session- wrong.

20-30 minutes a day until started and putitng tracks together.

the reason one shouldn't start and trian pups with older hounds is this- they get no chance to think, and no chance to develop their own work patterns. You need to let them develop THIER style without having to keep up with a pack of hoinds and get into the habit of "me tooing" and relying on others to do the work.

A started pup should be run solo 2-3 times for every time run with an experienced hound- once he gets to be a fair dog on his own- THEN introduce him to ONE other hound with similar style-

and after he becomes a "good" hound- solo running is still in my opinion, needed occasionally to "reset" his own independence.

and never, never, never think that a pakc of good hounds, will cure a hound with fault-s like little boys- theoppposite occurs more often than not.

Too many people want it done now- but in hounds thats not how it works- indeed not how it works with any dog. You want a hound (or dog) to be good- feed it tracks.

I remember once when my Dad was duck hunting- a guy in the next blind- sailed a goose into the marsh. Dad watched the guy repeatedly try to send his dog out for it, but he's get half way there, and come back. After a while, Dad went over and asked if he minded if he tried his dog?

Guy said sure- no dog will get that bird.

hand singals w/whistele- and Lady found that bird, and brought it back..

the guy said "Wow- how do I get a dog like that"

"an hour a day" my dad replyed...

true story.

[irnhdmike]

AMEN , and, thank you.

[yoteler]

Everyone train's the hounds different, and have there own opinions. For myself and my opinion, I have trained hounds for coyotes. From a pup stage they will be trained with a little scent, this helps them figure out that there nose will find what they are looking for. Once a pup follows the sent to the end he/she will get to play with the hide. Once the start getting bigger the will be run in a pen, with or without other pups. I myself have run pups with the older hounds. The older hounds look out for the pups and are great for training. Ya don't run pups with your speed demon hounds, run them with the old timers. I have not had any bad hounds turn out, or any good hounds wrecked from the way I have trained them.

[trappnman]

let me ask you this- how many hounds have you started?

anyone can do whatever they want- but if you continually run barely started pups with older hounds, speed demons or not- you are going to have hounds that never reach their full potential.

Its IMPERATIVE that youngs hounds set their style, before other hounds do it for them.

this is knowledge gained by listening to houndmen that have finished 100s of Fd Chs, and my own experience starting 20-30- pups a year for several decades.

[garman]

I was never one that believed in running with older hounds alot. Sounds crazy to some I know, run with a good older hound and alot on their own get them in easy spots to tree a coon and no trash. 1 easy tree a night, teaches them independence, means more split trees, more points or coon, if done wrong can cause trash problems or too much independence. You have to watch for these things and work with them accordingly. If too independent run more with other dogs. Then a well started dog should be ran 30-60 nights all night on its own to strengthen it.

[yoteler]

trappnman
I have started and help train 15 hounds out of the 9 years running coyotes. I am asking this? Are you talking about

Fd Chs

field trials or champions? Because field trial hounds are why different. I have been to field trails and those hounds just run fast to get a first scent and be the first to open to get points. I have seen hounds strike first and then trail to a slick tree if it is coon hounds, and seen Fox hounds at trails bay a scent in a tube ( with nothing in it) but fail to go around that tube and see were it came out the back side. All hounds (Coonhounds, beagles, coyote hounds, curs, plotts, blue ticks, walkers, running walkers, English,) are different.
To me and to the owners of the hounds, the hounds I have trained, they are considered, Finished Hounds. That is a dog that is fully trained to run the desired game.
I am happy the way I do it, and even more happy, that the owners are happy the way there hounds were trained and turn out.
But like I said everyone has there owns thoughts on how to train dogs I am just going on my experience of doing it and my results

I have nothing against people that run there dogs in trails, to try to get there hounds named Nite Champion or Grand Nite Champion. I have seen allot of hounds get scratched and that is no good for the owners name and the dog.
my own experience starting 20-30- pups a year for several decades.

Just remember training for different types of game meen's different types of training for the hounds

[trappnman]

no, not at all. I've hunted dozs of coon hounds fox hounds and beagles for almost 45 years. You never will go wrong starting and working a hound by himself- I cannot stress enough, that a hound needs to set his own style before running with mates.

if you have never started hound this way, you cannot compare the two methods. I too have started countless hounds with older dogs until I learned the correct way.

I'm not trying in any way to get you to change your methods- you are happy with what you have- but instead make the point for newer hound owners- there ARE no shortcuts.

and make no mistake- Fd ch's wil fill your freezer.

[yoteler]

I have started hounds on there own, but it is easier to train a dog so they learn what needs to be done. As the dogs get older they found out there own way, on how to change it up for themselves and get there own way to do things, and it works. This winter you should come out, and run with me on yotes or fox. Your more then welcome to bring your dogs and run with us.

[trappnman]

ok- now it comes down to easier- and its true, running a pup with older hounds is indeed easier- but in no way the best way t start a pup.

that pup NEEDS to set his own style, and running with older experienced hounds, doesn't allow this to happen. How can he possibly THINK about what he is doping, how ot work a check, how to put tracks together- when old Betsy is out there screaming it up before he can even get his nose on the ground. Until 18months, that pup is just that- a pup.

Yes, running with older hounds, is easier.

But its not the best way. When I spend money to breed a good bitch, and keep all thep ups to start- I'm not going ot have decent hounds, learn bad habits and mee tooing.

I'm willing to bet, that take out your best 1 or 2 dogs- and the rest couldn't run solo.

its impossible, for hounds started by tossing them into the pack, to get their full potential, unless they are great hounds to begin with. Because you CANNOT trian a hound to run a line and different- make that any better- than his genes allow. I can take any lab for example, out of good breeding, and make 99.9% of them decent hunting dogs- you cannot do that with a hound. All he can do, is not realize his full potential- by not giving him time to think, time to learn-

As I said- putting unstarted pups in with experienced hounds is easier, but its not the best way.

[garman]

trappnman- I would say we agree 100%, I do believe before the hound is totally started the dog must run with older dogs to learn the "group" hunting, UNLESS you want a very independent dog, which I loved myself. ut a dog must be finished to build self esteem and independence. I also believe if you cannot get, especially coonhounds on coon at a young age independently, then you will begin to find that hound will run other than coon. I started my best hound on his own, very independent and very good dog, but that independence cost him in competition. So I believe that is another factor competition or hunting.

[irnhdmike]

A hound must learn to do the work himself. If he depends on someone else you might as well leave him home. He must also learn how to run with a pack, when to hark in and when it's better not to. If you have 1 hound that can hunt alone you can go any time you want. If you have 100 hounds that have to run with a pack you have to go when the Pack goes. Don't get me wrong I enjoy a good hunt no mater how many dogs. But generally in a pack you can tell the one or two that are doing all the work.

[garman]

Jul 17, 2008 12:42:02 GMT -6 irnhdmike said:

A hound must learn to do the work himself. If he depends on someone else you might as well leave him home. He must also learn how to run with a pack, when to hark in and when it's better not to. If you have 1 hound that can hunt alone you can go any time you want. If you have 100 hounds that have to run with a pack you have to go when the Pack goes. Don't get me wrong I enjoy a good hunt no mater how many dogs. But generally in a pack you can tell the one or two that are doing all the work.

Agreed and I would dare say I love a independent dog that loves split trees no more beautiful sight and or sound than that of 2 hounds split treed. A few years ago my buddy and I had two male hounds his was a walker and me a black dog, they were both males that literally loved each other like brothers, but they were very competitive and inevitably would be split treed anywhere from 5 feet to 500 foot apart. Ii wil post some pics maybe tonight. I lost my dog @ 5 years ago at the prime of his life and he lost his @ 2 years ago.

[yoteler]

my hounds will run all by themselves, and do just fine, cause the guys I run with are not down in my area except for the weekends, so all my days off durning each week I run, weather anyone wants to run or not. Like I said the door is still open trappnman for you to bring your coyote hounds out with me and run and we will see how they do, cause of the training. I can take any lab for example, out of good breeding, and make 99.9% of them decent hunting dogs Labs are nothing like a hound. Once a hound gets on a cold track and the a hot track good luck in calling him off and telling him to stop, and kennel up, its in the bloodlines to run by there nose or site. I know of dogs that was never trained, and do awesome cause of the bloodlines

[rockcreekcurs]

Some great points made on both sides.

Starting a pup in the pack, you may make a me to dog, or get a nice pup ate up by some damn alligator, or turn them into a trash running machine if you run it with a trashy ridge runner.

Hunting them alone can also have downfalls, though IMO not near as many. You can make a dog TOO independent or even a spook if all the pup ever hunts with is you. You may also make a dog that won't hunt with strange dogs or any other dogs or people.

I hear people say all the time that it's tough to make dogs starting out with pups... If it was easy everyone would be doing it. It is tough to do and will test any man's patience, but it is so rewarding when the puzzle comes together and you start catching game.

I personally fall in the middle with how I raise my dogs. I like to start them alone and watch them figure stuff out, (Starting them alone will also let them show you when they are ready, not jump in because other dogs are barking) After I have them going pretty well I like to take them out with my older dogs. As soon as they have had some success both ways... I single them out for a while and let them show me what they have. This is make it or break it time. If they make it I welcome them to the team... if not they're done.

Steve- I have seen lots of people that have one or two good dogs and they really stack em up. Then something happens to them dogs and they go from zero to hero in a blink of an eye. All it takes is one bad wreck.

I am no expert, just a redneck that likes to raise and hunt dogs. Take care. Mason Workman

[briankroberts]

I've started quite a few hounds over the years mainly beagle hounds, some several dozen coon hounds thrown in the mix.
As far as my beagle hounds went, I started in the yard at 4-6 weeks old, at feeding time I would let a couple out and drop a pellet or two of feed and point to it and say sic. sic, sic.
In a short while they were all over it.
I kept this up until I took them to the woods at about 4 months of age.
I would let them explore while I watched.
When a rabbit was jumped wether I jumped it or they did I would call them over to the (form) ( the place where the rabbit had been sitting) you'd be suprised how many of those pups tried to take that track the 1st time.
Once they started running tracks I would run them at least a couple hours a day for 30 days straight, by there selves.
Than I would run them with other dogs off and on, but the one thing I always wanted was independence.
I tried running dogs with old dogs and I never got what I wanted.
Running solo I made some very nice hounds and at a young age.
I won't even get into the coonhounds right now....B...

[yoteler]

Like I said all hounds are different, and with different hounds meens different types of training.

[rockcreekcurs]

Jul 17, 2008 19:28:58 GMT -6 yoteler said:

Like I said all hounds are different, and with different hounds meens different types of training.

You got that right! You can't train a B&T like you would a Walker for example. Anyone that thinks you use the same training on every scenthound should try raising and training a cur.

[yoteler]

I agree.
Do you use the curs for a toll Dog? Do you have the Black Mouth, Catahoula, Mountain, there is few different breeds, which one do you use, and how do you use the dog.

[rockcreekcurs]

I hunt lions, bears, bobcats, coons and decoy coyotes with my curs. They are Mountain Curs. I also have some hounds. Take care.

[musher]

How about a few explanations regarding specific breed training methods and the reason why you must do things that way.

Thanks.