|
Post by rockcreekcurs on Jul 19, 2008 19:13:55 GMT -6
I am no expert but you have to be soft with some breeds like Black and Tans, Leopard Curs, Old line lion hound bred dogs with lots of Bloodhound way back. If you get after them to bad and hit em or even scold them sometimes, they shut down and are scared of you for a week or more.
On the reverse side of that coin would be Walkers and English dogs and Mountain Curs. If you don't rule over them pretty strongly they will take a mile when you give an inch. If you smack one of them and get after em yelling they get the message and don't go into shell shock. I try not to loose my temper whenever I am training a dog but it happens.
Training Curs (Leopards, Stephens, and Kemmer Mountain Curs are the only ones I have any experience with) you have to go about it a whole different way. These dogs are not driven by their noses even though they have great noses. If you raise them right they are driven by a desire to please YOU. They also have a lot going on upstairs and sometimes that creates a problem. You have to raise one to see the differences but I will tell you they are night and day.
The most important thing I have learned messing with dogs is you better like the one(s) you are feeding. If not you'll never put the time in, that it takes to make something out of one. There are good and terrible in all breeds, so go with what you like and enjoy yourself.
|
|
|
Post by musher on Jul 19, 2008 19:20:53 GMT -6
It sounds like different types of sled dogs.
Some are timid and others require a 2 x4 to get their attention.
I prefer the tougher ones. It's a pain when the dog gets freaked over snowmobiles, or a stream running close to the trail. a wolf howl can slow them down, too.
|
|
|
Post by Timber on Jul 20, 2008 8:44:49 GMT -6
Training Curs (Leopards, Stephens, and Kemmer Mountain Curs are the only ones I have any experience with) you have to go about it a whole different way. These dogs are not driven by their noses even though they have great noses. If you raise them right they are driven by a desire to please YOU. They also have a lot going on upstairs and sometimes that creates a problem. You have to raise one to see the differences but I will tell you they are night and day. Ain't that the truth. My cur will do anything he thinks will please me. He's REALLY smart and amazes me daily with his drive to please and ability to learn. He definitely thinks he's smarter than the other dogs and trys to be the sheriiff if he thinks a dog is doing something he knows they shouldn't be doing. Curs seem to learn very fast if you can get your point across to them. He's proved he's smarter than his owner several times. Tim
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 20, 2008 13:20:28 GMT -6
you boys are confusing the issues- yes, every dog breed is different temperament, and every dog within that breed is an individual. And obedience training, kennel manners need to be handled differently.
BUT..and this is a big, bonifide BUT- there is NOTHING absolutely NOTHING you can do to make a HOUND- and I'm specifically talking hounds- better than when he was born. His traits are there-
it is YOUR job, to allow him to develop that potential to his fullest ability. And you will never ever convince me, because I simply KNOW better, that this will happen on MOST hounds by being tossed into a pack and be trained himself- and yes, I know "slow" dogs are better for that ...but the key word is "better".
a simple yet accurate analogy- you and your buddy both get your lic at same time- for next year- he does all the driving,... who's the better, more skilled confident driver?
If you have to start your pups with others, then do so. But myself, if I was serious about canine running- I'd get a game farm permit and keep a couple of fox- like I did coon and bunnies. And I can see how cats and bear might be a different story- but even then- once they are using their nose and working a line- perhaps opening a little- solo.
then run with 1 or 2 other hounds as warranted- but when you see him being lazy, a me tooer- get him out alone.
Yes, its time consuming. Yes, its work.
But ask yourself- would you rather buy a hound sight unseen that was started and always run with a pack- or one worked solo until good enough to be IN that pack.... Choice pretty simple for me- I don't like a hound that doesn't do his own work.
I've judged countless small pack on cottontail trials, and a few large pack on hare trials.
Once you pick up the liars, the cheaters, the skirter's, the do nothings- THEN you got a pack.
Meaning no disrespect to anyones hounds- but there is a clear right and wrong way to maximize a hound.
|
|
|
Post by garman on Jul 20, 2008 14:29:26 GMT -6
- once they are using their nose and working a line- perhaps opening a little- solo. then run with 1 or 2 other hounds as warranted- but when you see him being lazy, a me tooer- get him out alone. Yes, its time consuming. Yes, its work. quote] My gosh when it comes to hounds we agree on something I started several hounds that way, and yes it builds a heck of a hound, but in the words of an old buddy of mine "you cannot polish a turd"... if the hound has it, it does.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 20, 2008 14:51:24 GMT -6
If not you'll never put the time in, that it takes to make something out of one.
one of my mentors always shook his head when someone would tell him that "they just didn't have the time to start and work their pup...." He's say "me neither but I start a lot of them. And he did- hundreds of beagle pups and 50-75 coonhounds a year- all working a ful time night shift."
Garmen, thats the rub on hounds- I almost never sold an unstated pup- because you never knew what you were selling. I'd raise 3 maybe 4 litters a year and would keep them all until started.
At that moment, a $300 dog becomes either a $1000 dog..... or a $50 dog.
|
|
|
Post by rockcreekcurs on Jul 20, 2008 18:03:50 GMT -6
At that moment, a $300 dog becomes either a $1000 dog..... or a $50 dog. You got that right! Hounds are like an ATM... if it ain't in there you can't get anything out!
|
|
|
Post by garman on Jul 20, 2008 18:09:21 GMT -6
I always remember the guys selling hounds, "he is started" ... bottomline had not done anything but been dropped off the tailgate. Starting and finishing a hound does take time and alot of patience. My first pup I trained was a black and tan male, started him on a coonhide, then chipmunks and squirrels. Treed his first litter at 5 1/2 months. Got the picture of that in my office. Then ran him on his own many nights then together with very trustworthy dogs. His second year of life he soon @ 300 coon and never got one he did not tree (that was during kill season). The second year of life I put @ 200 nights in the woods with that dog. He became a hound that respected me and I more so respected him. I doubt so many guys spend as many nights in the woods as I do. Later I sold a 1 year old pup cousin to him, was going to be twice the dog as him. The guy called me @ 6 months later complaining. i asked him what was the problem he said the dog is quiet on track and does not do as good as he liked. I asked How much did he have him out since I sold him to him. He said the first time he had him out was a month before that about 3 times. Hunted him @ 3 times in 6 months. Mosdt of the time sat idle. Amazing, I told him to hunt the dog or sell it. Several months later I recieved a call from a guy in Indiana I believe who bought him and said he was the best pup he ever trained, wondered why the other guy was unhappy and why I sold him. There ya have it. Buy good bloodlines, hunt hard when ready, and use some common sense.
|
|
|
Post by yoteler on Jul 21, 2008 6:24:22 GMT -6
garman I agree with you on this if you, Buy hounds, and that will take alot of research When I bought my first hound, which had 1/4 bloodhound and the rest of her, was all Trigg. Icheck the ped. that went back 15 years for those bloodlines, and ask the owner to run the sire on coyotes, heck the bitch even wanted to run. After seeing the sire in action on the outside, it was a very easy decision to buy a pup. My July Hound I have, is a very independant hount. He has a good cold nose, and will track them yotes down, making him a great jump dog. He was trained as a pup the same way I have trained all my hounds( running with older hounds). Hounds have a mind of there own, if they want there potential to come out, it will. People can train night and day just make sure you don't over do, and burn a dog out. And then there are owners that hardley train at all, but it is in the bloodlines, and the pups, know what to do before there ever born. My July hound is smart and very clever. He will jump a coyote, and will run the crap out of it. As the other hounds get into the race, its like he knows were the yote is gonna run. He will slow done on the tracking jump and let the other hounds get into some action. He then will cut the circle in half and then nail the yote in the middle, and then the fight is on. If he is running alone he will run the track, until the yote gets taking out, or looses the track.
|
|
|
Post by garman on Jul 21, 2008 6:58:32 GMT -6
Yes breeding your own is a tad different, but it is still research as who to breed to etc. Buying your one(as a pup) the same search, read, talk to guys that know and hunt hard, not the ones that necessarily advertise how good there hounds are. Then hunt with it and learn the good and bad. Then decide what you want to live with.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 21, 2008 7:58:45 GMT -6
I won't say a thing...a won't say a thing...I won't say a thing....
but READ what you just wrote yoteler- READ it- and you will see EXACTLY in several cases what I was saying.
maybe after you breed, run and train hounds for a few decades, you will see it- right now, you can't see the forest for the trees....
I'm trying to help you out- but carry on, you know best.
|
|
|
Post by yoteler on Jul 21, 2008 9:34:06 GMT -6
I really don't need any help, cause I already do know what my hounds can do trappnman. Helping new folks with hounds on training is kinda what this forum and subject is about. I really don't think you need to start a pissing match on who knows best. I am just going on my experiance and knowledge, of the training I have done, and been good at, with great resaults. Like I said 2 other times earlier in this thread, BRING YOUR COYOTE HOUNDS out and RUN WITH ME. Then I can see how your hounds work, and you will see mine. And then I will be the First to edmit I was wrong, if I am wrong. and vise versa. The DOOR IS STILL OPEN, LETS RUN OUR HOUNDS.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 21, 2008 9:59:24 GMT -6
whats so hard to understand? the question isn't about a pissing match- its about the right way.
don't you want the best possible out of oyur hounds? My lord man, by your own adminttance, you have started less thna 15 hounds- why wouldn't you want to learn from someone that has started 100s and 100s of hounds? And those like rockmtcur that have doen the same and say the same.
I don't own any canine hounds now- but I've followed more than you have by tenfold- and that I know for a fact- what it takes to bring out the best in a hound. You might bullshit your buddies- but buddy- been there, done that for more than 40 years.
if your hounds make you happy than thats all that counts-
your best hound cuts off the middle and cheats, goes silent so HE can get the glory?
Sorry- thats not good hound work. use a doberman- they will do the same, and yes- I know becasue I had one that did.
So listen and learn a little- and when someone tells you there is a better way- don't argue the point until you've done it!
And people wonder why the old timers don't like to give out info.....
|
|
|
Post by yoteler on Jul 21, 2008 12:18:52 GMT -6
Correct way ?
and yes you are correct on this I have never needed to do it another way because my training works very good for me and the others I have trained. I figure why mess with the training if you have not had any problems so far. If problems were to come up then it would be something to look at for different training.
There is no Correct way, well in some houndsmans eyes there way, is the only way, cause they think they have the best hounds in the world, that can even out perform gods hounds ;D. I have ran against hounds only on the outside, no pens, because pens are loaded with scent from yotes, or fox, or what ever your training your hound on, and there have been days were a hound will out perform mine, and the next day mine will out preform the same hound from the day before. Hounds have there good days and bad. As for my and OMG LOL Its not cheating, its letting the hounds due what they do best, and get the job done, and by my hound jumping the coyote and running it, and cutting the circle if half, it saves the hounds from running and running and running for a hours, and getting tired, so they can be free casted or put on another track, to hunt somemore. To me cheating is putting hounds on a coyote and running it hard, until the running hounds and coyote is tired. And then all of a sudden throwing fresh hounds that have not run yet on a tired coyote and the dogs are able to catch and kill that yote. To me that is cheating. but some houndsman do it.
I agree with you, and I think you are still doing it, because I have never seen you with coyote or fox hounds, or being a trainer. the onlything I have ever heard is that you are a BIG TIME Trapper, and there is nothing wrong with that
I am not arguing any of the opinions that people have, I argue the part when people try telling me that there way is the best and only way to do things. Opinions are like Assholes, everybody has one
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 21, 2008 15:56:13 GMT -6
if you think a hound leaving a line and cheating to get ahead of the pack is good hound work, then you do.
If starting 15 hounds, makes you think you are an expert, then it does.
Yes of course hounds have good days and bad- but once again, nothing to the point which is HOW TO GET THE BEST POTENTIAL FROM YOUR HOUND.
There is no Correct way, well in some houndsmans eyes there way, is the only way, cause they think they have the best hounds in the world,
sorry- there IS the correct way- whether your hounds are good or bad- the very fact that...and let me quote.... He will jump a coyote, and will run the crap out of it. As the other hounds get into the race, its like he knows were the yote is gonna run. He will slow done on the tracking jump and let the other hounds get into some action. He then will cut the circle in half and then nail the yote in the middle, and then the fight is on.
what this tells an experienced houndman is this: that hound gets jealous when other hounds get credit- to compensate for that jealousy, he attempts to skirt the line, to be silent and cheat the other hounds-
no opinion, fact
You've known me for what a year? and seen me once? the day yo ufollwed me what 10 miles ot where I was trapping? ask Jason about my boxes of trophies - want to see my Fd Ch certificates also?
To me cheating is putting hounds on a coyote and running it hard, until the running hounds and coyote is tired. And then all of a sudden throwing fresh hounds that have not run yet on a tired coyote and the dogs are able to catch and kill that yote. To me that is cheating. but some houndsman do it.
thats ETHICS- and has nothing to do with hound work. I honestly don't think you understand what good houndwork is- your posts relfect that.
I'm out of this thread- your opinions make it clear, you are inexperienced, and thats fine- but don't try to lecture an EXPERIENCED houndman.
this is a DEFINITIVE statement- and NO houndman that has paids his dues, can deny it...
the best way to get the full potential of a hound, is to work it enough solo
If you don't agree with that, I really don't care.
And that- isn't opinion, its fact.
and I suggest, you think very carefully if you want to be here or not- this forum is NOT for the inexperienced to tell the experienced how its done- whether trapping or dogs. Your next post could well be your last.
and trust me, I'll make NO attempt to help you in any way. It's not worth my time.
|
|
|
Post by yoteler on Jul 21, 2008 16:23:07 GMT -6
steve please tell me what ( Fd Ch certificates ) are and what they stand for. And I have seen you many times out driving around checking your traps, because I did not want to bother you, and jason. And I am no expert, I am going on what I know works and will stick with what i know works. If you want to bann me that is your decision, but I am speaking of only the facts that I know of
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jul 21, 2008 17:02:26 GMT -6
don- ALL I am trying to tell you- is this- the way to bring out the best in a hound, is to give it solo work until he sets his style. Yes, you can get good hounds by doing all their work in a pack- but you can make THOSE hounds better- if you work them solo until that style is formed.
I'm saying- if you are happy now- you would be even happier if you took your training knowledge to that next step. Hey...I've been where you are at- when I started I did my hounds like that. And was happy- until I knew that there IS a better way.....
Fd Ch means Field Champions. Some I've owned or breed are Fd Ch Cherakawa's Black Bishop, Fd Ch Jamdor's Stoney, Nite Ch Misty Hills Ellie Mae, Fd Ch Close Call Charlie, Fd Ch. Amanda Rose, Fd Ch Omena Dakota, and Nr Fd Ch Doc's Rock. I've owned a few other, but memory fails me.
And I do NOT say this to brag- heck, I own one hound now- I say this to show my qualificaitons.
And I'm telling you, based on breeding, starting and training 100s of hounds- that solo work for a just started hound brings out the best in him. Hounds are like little boys- one bad apple, spoils the pack. Good traits don't rub off...bad ones do.
I'm not trying to embarass you or get into a pissing match... But I know what I know.
|
|
|
Post by rockcreekcurs on Jul 21, 2008 23:16:45 GMT -6
Hounds are like little boys- one bad apple, spoils the pack. Good traits don't rub off...bad ones do. Like my buddy always says..."You ain't wrong!" That's the damn truth if it was ever told!
|
|
|
Post by yoteler on Jul 22, 2008 5:57:43 GMT -6
Hell steve it takes alot to embarass me or hurt my feelings All I am saying is meens nothing to me, cause I have went to alot of competition hunts and field trials, and it is not even close to truely hunting on the outside, to be able to let the hounds run, and not have to worrie it a judge is having a bad day or has friends running against you. because I have seen hounds get scratched for doing a simple little thing wrong. And that falls back on the owner and trainer. And the Field Champions that you are talking about are they coon hounds, or rabbit dogs? My hound does run solo because I wrote when he jumps a yote the other hounds try and catch up. My hound is 90% of the time that is out on his own to get a yote jump and run the other guys hounds. So yes he is a solo hound, and I am happy, and was trained my way ,and gets the job done
|
|