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Post by trappnman on Jul 1, 2007 9:08:41 GMT -6
a pet peeve....
I often read water depth numbers needed for drowning, and wonder if the person giving the advise has enough experience to comment.
Coon for example- in areas with a big coon, you need at least 3 feet of water, and a staked slide, to RELIABLY drown that critter everytime. Sure, 2 feet will work most times but a big coon and an average chain length, causes enough mishaps that I've learned- at least 3 feet- deeper is better.
and mink and rats. I just read where 18" of water reliably drowns these critters. Again, most times- but 18" isn't nothing to a big male mink rear foot caught. And unless using slides at every set, you aren't going to drown every one even in DEEP water.
using current and leaving the rebar up several inches to tangle, helps.
When giving advice to someone wanted to drown things here- I tell them go 3 feet or deeper, and you KNOW they will be down and out. On a 3 day check, reliability is a must, not a wish.
I'd no sooner try to drown a coon in 2 feet of water as I'd single stake coyotes. Works "most" of the time- but most isn't good enough.
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Post by rk660 on Jul 1, 2007 10:26:34 GMT -6
Ill argue the 3 ft needed to drown coon, and from a hands on point of view and not token numbers. rarely do I set bottem end over my knee as per water depth. thats 26" or less most of time. I get a few live ones at end of the slide wire but not many. Now weather they "drown" per se of die of hypo, I dont know, but 90% are DOA. Water temp, current, trap weight all come into play also. Beaver take a lot less water to drown than most people think too. Trick is proper weighting rig and proper sized trap.
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 1, 2007 10:29:15 GMT -6
" most isn`t good enough". there, I finally got you to say it. I think it was locklear or someone said we don`t want most of the time, we want all of the time! I don`t want to catch most of he animals ,or live most of my life, or win most of my fights, yadayadyada, I want all of them! do I get them all? nope, and I`m never satisfied or quit trying unless I do.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 1, 2007 10:35:58 GMT -6
I get a few live ones at end of the slide wire but not many.
exactly- to RELIABLY drown coon- meaning 100% of the time- you need deeper water. Ofcurse yo ucan drown a coon in 2 feet or even 1 feet- but in 1 foot of water I'll bet you a douhgnut you'll have as many alive as dead in my area. Hypothermia isn't a factor here- I've never had a dead coon on a 24 hour check due to ice. And no one traps coon in colder weather than I do.
the key word is relability- and to me, with out sized coon- under 3 feet is not reliable.
possible, most times- sure.....
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Post by trappngreys on Jul 1, 2007 10:40:20 GMT -6
First off I have never set a drowning set up before. 90% of my water trapping in on creeks that ain't deep enough to drown them. I use drags and i don't do much water trapping anyway.
My question is does shallower water still prevent wring offs or chew outs?
I am getting some more land to trap this year that has a bigger deeper creek on it and was wondering about this.
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Post by rk660 on Jul 1, 2007 10:55:33 GMT -6
Bottom line. dead or alive in powered up no 2 coil in 2 ft of water, he aint leaving. aint seen one yet that packs scuba gear to chew out in 2 ft of water. he is still in "pay" count and not "release" count. the only count that counts. minus the expense of one .22 shell. 50 coon day with 3 shot alive and no losses is still payed at 50 coon.
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Post by trappngreys on Jul 1, 2007 11:03:56 GMT -6
rk660 that's what common sense was telling me. I just couldn't see them getting out of the trap in even a foot of water....but (as one of those trappers Mr. Wendt don't like) I ain't no professional. lol
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 1, 2007 12:23:24 GMT -6
bwa- you guys can have all the coon, dead or alive! rats and beaver too!
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Post by rk660 on Jul 1, 2007 12:31:09 GMT -6
Bob, with all the coon hunters across the country, have you ever heard of a live market for coons? I suppose they just catch their own?
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Post by bobwendt on Jul 1, 2007 12:45:16 GMT -6
ya, but it`s 10-15 bucks. these guys are all gold plated huh. not worth doing in my estimation. smack em and stack em makes more sense at 10-15 bucks. and even that is debatable.
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Post by musher on Jul 1, 2007 17:00:51 GMT -6
I'm surprised regarding Steve's mink comment. In my experience they drown really easily. Often in only inches of water. Hypothermia, maybe?
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Post by trappnman on Jul 1, 2007 17:29:24 GMT -6
1) lets not confuse looses with wanting the coon 100% down and out. I don't WANT a live coon on my 3 day checks. Of course hes stil lgoing ot be there- that was never the point.
THe point- is that if you are going to drown- then DROWN- and 2 feet of water is not going to do the job ALL of the time. A hind foot caught big coon is NOT going to drown in 2 feet of water all of the time. Do most? Sure.
Secondly, besides the public seeing coon alive, I personally don't want coon sitting alive in a trap for 3 days- no more tan I'd want to check a fox line using nothing but Victor #2 square jaws. Doubt if my fox take wouldn't be different, but how I'd feel about myself would be. Sorry- I don't believe the results justify the means 100% of the time.
You hold coon in 6 inches of water, and he will be there. You hold a coon in entanglement, and he's going ot be there. Being there, as mentioned, is not the point.
Regarding mink- on a slide wire, yes, mink are easy to drown. On a long chain/wire to the middle of the creek, not always. Several times over the years, I'll get a live mink- and have tossed them into 3-4 feet of water, watch them sink to the bottom, then swim back to the top and into shallow water. Again, A hind foot caught mink can stretch 3 feet easily.
But with anything- fast water means a little less is needed. When possible, I give then enough wire to reach fast water. another reason why I like a heavy trap for mink (#2 dls perfect mink trap IMHO)
To me, if on a 24 hour check, I don't ever drown my coon nor want to. A log drag is easier, quicker- and its how I do all my 24 hour check coon line. But on a 3 day check- I cannot and do not accept not KNOWING- bar a freak incident- if that coon is down and out. 2 feet of water is like staking coyotes with a single stake- holds the vast majority- but you are going to lose traps and yotes. 3 feet of water is akin to double staking.
So- if someone would ask me- how much water would I need to 100% drown coon (to me the only meaning of reliable in this context) my answer would be minimum of 3 feet.
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wbg
Demoman...
Posts: 182
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Post by wbg on Jul 1, 2007 18:20:25 GMT -6
I can only speak on mink as I don't bother with coon. I don't use any drowner's at all and set in as little as 4 inches of water, of course if only 4 inches it usually has some current to it. I some times use tie plates but more often I'm tyeing off to bridge side or brush. I have kept track of live catches over the years and it consistently runs at 2 or 3 mink per hundred. IMHO this is a very acceptable number. Also, the mink I do find alive are typically on very snotty mornings, and My feeling is that they spent very little time in the trap. Also very little damage to drowned mink and little or no disturbance at the set. Ofcourse, this is cold water country and stress plays a part in dispatch.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 1, 2007 18:51:07 GMT -6
yes, I'd say thats about my ratio- maybe a little less say 1-2 a hundred.
Once again, its the 3 day vs 24 check thats at least my point.
4 inches- I've done it also- but to be honest, 4 inches in my opinion won't do it at all consistently- unless mega current, and you are going to lose just about every rat unless using stoploss- and I know from experience I'll get twist outs- I have lots of grasses along my streams. I'm guessing you don't set in 4" very often.
My standard mink setup is rebar in bottom of the creek with enough chain/wire to be i nfaster water. Set locations are chosen for the drowning sites. Im trapping a lot of single digit weather and below (most years) so its cold here also.
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Post by rk660 on Jul 1, 2007 19:52:18 GMT -6
I very highly doubt any coon survives the 2 or 3 days in 24" of cold water. ones seen alive are most likely caught the night before. from what I see most/all alive ones are those caught the night before. you also run a lighter weight trap than I do which does make a difference. Another thing is when you run a pogo at bottom end with cable stuck 18-24" deep, they kick away some of bottom out going into mud and lock gets deeper under the surface, adding a few inches to total water. in sandy bottoms, the first coon will have a fanned out hole sometimes 3 ft across and a foot deep into sand, creating a deeper drowning hole for the next ones.
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Post by trappnman on Jul 1, 2007 20:01:41 GMT -6
rich- I never said that a coon is going to survive 2-3 days in freezing water.
What I did say, was that I don't want any coon alive for any days unless 24 hour check. and to do that- I NEED at least 3 feet of water.
And coon season isn't always freezing weather, and last few years, warm days and nights 70s in Dec, etc - I'd bet money that 2-3 days is not only very probable, but I've seen stuff that makes me believe its so.
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Post by k9 on Jul 1, 2007 21:09:59 GMT -6
I do not try to drown a lot of them on 24 hour check, but still have some dead. I think hypo does factor in when the coon does not have anything to get up on.
Speaking of chew outs, Rich do you mind if I start a thread talking about the 1 1/2 work you are doing?
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Post by Mud Turtle on Jul 2, 2007 4:38:58 GMT -6
less than 3 feet is not enough. but i can see holding him off the bank in whatever water you have.
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Post by mustelameister on Jul 2, 2007 5:16:47 GMT -6
Two feet of water will drown a 'coon 99.9% of the time . . . IF . . . you're targeting front feet only and you've got the trap short chained. And that goes for 30# plus 'coon.
All my water traps I've short-chained to about 6". In this situation I'm using the #11 DJ halfway in a small-diameter pocket.
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Post by rk660 on Jul 2, 2007 6:15:51 GMT -6
Go right ahead K-9
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