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Post by trappnman on Jun 12, 2007 5:06:44 GMT -6
been discussing this elesewhere.
the question- does DOG position at a set, have any real bearing on catching coyotes.
In otherwords, does standing on the dog, either allow a coyote to 1) pull his foot back before the trap closes or 2) has his foot "thrown out of the trap".
My opinion, that if a dog being "snapped back" throws a foot out of a trap, it happens for seldom, to not even be a factor to worry about.
I myself, see absolutely NO difference in amount of snapped traps, no matter WHAT positon the dog is in.
Guiding, trap bedding , etc- are far more important than dog position.
Comments?
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Post by RonMarsh on Jun 12, 2007 5:25:53 GMT -6
I do not disagree with you. I still set my traps with the same offset and dog position. This helps me to be consistant and have all of the other things right.
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Post by 17HMR on Jun 12, 2007 5:26:20 GMT -6
I also think guideing and bedding are more important, but I think a foot on the dog may cause a larger % of toe catches. I find very few toe catches in my dogless traps, but it could be that Im just getting better at guideing?
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Post by trappnman on Jun 12, 2007 6:05:39 GMT -6
ron- I too through habit set the dog certtaqin ways depending on the set. I'm used to is, its part of a routine.
17- I think you hit it. Guiding.
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Post by DaveM on Jun 12, 2007 6:16:08 GMT -6
I dont think it makes a whole lot of difference.
Now here is another question. Has anyone noticed less bent dogs from chewing, when the dog is facing away from the hole? This seems to make the dog less accessable to a trapped coyote.
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Post by bobwendt on Jun 12, 2007 6:28:40 GMT -6
dave, interesting point. I switched over to all heavy duty dogs ,as I got so tired of the accordian affect. as far as does it make a difference? is the difference enough to worry about? yes and yes, both small. and even if it is a maybe, there are so few things we can control, like no control at all over population levels ,from distemper or mange, low levels from prey base crashes, funky weather, human intrentional interference, sometimes access etc etc etc. the list is endless. soooo, the few things that are under my control, like maybe a solid catch over a throw out or more likely a toe catcth, I`d rather do it perfect. it just makes me feel better that I did everything in MY power to make it work right. tilt the field in my favor all I can so to speak. just like the quarterback looks for his best receiver, takes into account wind and the possible rush. it all factors in to make a set a success or a failure. it comes automatic after a while and one doesn`t even realize he does these almost inpercetable little things that might increase success a nano percent. but they all add up when the hammer drops.
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Post by trappnman on Jun 12, 2007 8:04:38 GMT -6
When people always talked about chewed dogs, I was always surprised it was such a concern. i'd get a couple a week if that, and it was an easy matter to straighten it out.
At the time, I was using almost 100% flat walkthrough sets, and I'd set the dog (and still do) at 6 oclock. someone mentioned- woody I think- that on a short chain, with the dog under the foot so to speak, it would be very awkward for a coyote to chew on it. made sense to me.
bob- I think it happens so very rarely, that its negelable. but who really knows.
I do protect the dog, even though I don't beleive it makes much difference. Its easy enough to do, so even a maybe, why not. Its why I like to often take my trowel end and make a track or two on the pattern. I don't really think it helps, but it doesn't hurt and easiiest enough to do.
But dog position, really doesn't matter.
You can protect the dog in a couple of ways- by placing it on the side of the pattern, or by using a small guide at the dog no matter where the dog is placed in relation to the set.
in bean field type settings for example, a bean stalk sticking and inch or so out ensures the foot moves around the dog.
as does a pebble on the edge.
I guess I really should redefine the issue. The original question was- does it matter if the jaws are horizontal to the lure hole, or vertical? Does it matter which direction the coyote is approaching?
I don't believe it does on an animal a coyotes size, that is setting into the trap.
The side issue was the dog position in relation to the jaw positions- and it got sidetracked to does the dog position, relative to the trap (on a clock face) matter in success?
If stepping on the dog is a worry, a guide solves the problem
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Post by bobwendt on Jun 12, 2007 9:09:02 GMT -6
dog bending is a factor of adult aged coyortes vs pups. the yoy in fall /winter rarely work a trap dog. the older ( 2 year plus and up) work it like heck. even the smaller western coyotes, if aged ,can bend up a dog like it was tinfoil. these heavy duty dogs I use now have cured it 100% so far. they are double or more the metal thickness of factory dogs. tman, the guide would push his foot off center from the pan, for sure , if stuck in at the dog or close to that side. I`m sure a jaw flipping up can throw a foot out or cause a toe catch also. this is why a lot of guys like big iron. I`d rather no guides close enough to get the step off center of the pan. just my way of doing it.
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Post by trappnman on Jun 12, 2007 9:21:27 GMT -6
I'm not sure if I understand what you mean Bob.
I look at guides to make him center his foot. and I get laughed at for this- but I mentally think - if his foots on the pan, where would his other feet most likely be? and place a guide or two where those feet won't be, to ensure that they go where I think they would.
are you thinking guides big enough for him to alter his step? I think of guides more as getting him to 1) pick up a foot or 2) to make him not put a foot down where I don't want him to.
I think in small traps, that a lot of misses are standing on the jaw for sure.
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Post by Traveler on Jun 12, 2007 9:44:09 GMT -6
I position my dog different from most people......least wise from all the pictures and videos I've seen thru the years.I always set mine at either a 2 o'clock or 3 o'clock position.All I can say is that it works for me.I've noticed that most set their's at 6 o'clock.I tried that and for some reason got a lot of misses this way.....so I change back to my old way of doing things. As to bent dogs,I had a LOT of trouble with this until I switched over to either the heavy duty ones or reinforced ones.Problem solved.Now some of these was nothing more than a twist mess that couldn't be cured out on the line. Toe catches ? Honestly these have become extremely rare for me.I use a 4-coiled Bridger no.2 that been base plated and center swiveled.Laminated jaws completes it.Adjusting the pan to be ever so slightly below jaw level and about a 1/16" pan drop has all but stopped toes catches for me.The Bridger no.2 when 4-coil is a VERY fast trap.And when adjusted this way and bedded solid.........I've had no problems with this in many years.
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Post by bobwendt on Jun 12, 2007 10:33:47 GMT -6
traveler, I put my dog at the same identical position as you, 2 oclock, and adjust similar. but if the soil is frozen and I have to put it somewhere else to get my set in, I do. tman, I`ve said this many times before, but I don`t think folks actually grasp it. I`ve had a set froze in or dirt wash under the pan , whatever reason the trap won`t fire ( sometimes stolen!) and what I see on a very large area, maybe a foot or more across is so many tracks they all overlap, you couldn`t put a finger down anywhere without you touched a track. my point being if the dope down the hole is good enough, and the stuff I use is, you don`t need any guides at all, if you just get the trap and the hole in the same acre the sucker will stay till he gets caught. now that is good lure,bait ,and pee. 100%, no, but 98%. and the advantage of a hole over a flat where he can get to everything easy. I make him stay till he gets caught, none of this 1 track on the pattern for me. I want a complete no visit at all or a coyote sitting there. nothing else is acceptable. guys say oh everyone uses dirtholes ( ever ask why?) , so they are "wise" to them. "wise", a dad gum animal? balderdash, they are all stupid, every one of them. I don`t know if you could make a coyote avoid holes and good smells even if one tried. they are like mean women, we get burned by women regular, us men I mean, but we just keep on going back for more. to a coyote , holes and good smells are the same. I`ve even caught coyotes toting traps and fresh toe pegs. also traps flipped one day and a coyote the next and no other tracks in the snow the day before, or now, leading me to believe the same knucklehead flipped or pulled out one day , only to come back to the very same everything the next day. I can see flat to hide sets from thieves, but that visual and hole is hard to replace.
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Post by Traveler on Jun 12, 2007 11:33:36 GMT -6
I do the same thing Bob.........very ,very few guides.I feel that the angle of the hole,using two holes at different angles(with trap in the center) is guide enough IF..........IF you have something in that hole he really wants.Be it lure or bait,it has to make his mouth truly slobber.You get all the foot action you want this way.
A flat set is someting I will use a hint of guiding with.....but even at that,lure placement and having a truly good lure will still get the foot response that you want.Sometimes I will turn a flat into a cache set just to get the extra foot movement that a really good bait will provide.
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Post by trappnman on Jun 12, 2007 11:43:01 GMT -6
we are in agreement 100% on this. I don't over guide- but I do like a couple of guides. ensuring the full foot in the trap and not standing on the jaw. Hole sets, as you mostly use, can get that bowl shaped depression and look natural. Heck, in the WY sand, you got that shape without trying LOL
but on flat sets, I want his foot where I want it. A guide saying "don't step here" is all takes.
I also am trying to use more body guides on certain set locations.
While I too have had the pleasure of checking traps that didn't fire, and can attest to the dance over every square inch behavior- which is why a 2 hole walkthrough is a preferred set- quxik and easy to make- and I catch em' by any foot front or back left or right- I don't care what foot it is- but I do like it centered- thus the guides.
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Post by bobwendt on Jun 12, 2007 12:05:16 GMT -6
speaking of body guiding, I do that with sanres on a wide open trail. could be a block of wood on a wide spot strategically placed, could be a goldenrod 10 feet down the trail , planted in a cetain way to swing his body to the "right or left hand lane". but traps, I let his nose be his foot guide.
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Post by trappnman on Jun 12, 2007 12:26:49 GMT -6
one of the best pieces of snaring advice I got this past year- don't put your blocking AT the snare- put it down the trail a ways. That they will be focusing on the blocking as he comes up, making it less likely he sees that snare at eye level (thans to MN snaring regs)
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Post by lynxcat on Jun 28, 2007 19:15:11 GMT -6
I ALL REALITY it more than likely makes NO DIFFERENCE... or so small a % as to be futile.. the BIG DIFFERENCE in dog position is how it makes the trapper feel.. PLAIN AND SIMPLE... I DEFY anyone to bring up and 100% substantiated evidence to prove it.. lynx
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Post by trappnman on Jun 28, 2007 19:39:50 GMT -6
I tend to agree lynx-
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Post by bobwendt on Jun 29, 2007 3:59:14 GMT -6
lynx, that is like saying prove god exists, or doesn`t exist. you are safe thinking no way, but maybe not really safe! why take the risk?
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Post by trappnman on Jun 29, 2007 6:02:27 GMT -6
determining if dog position is a factor isn't quite the eons old concept of determining if God exists.
the proof in trapping, is in results.
A=B=C
put the dog at 6 ,at 9, at 12- and if you are getting more snapped traps because of it, you have other problems besides dog position.
the ONLY reason to placve a dog at a certain position- yjer only one tyhat makes even an iota of sense, is to prevent the coyote from stepping 100% o nte dog when he fires the trap.
I offered this test elsewhere. Press with all your might on the dog with 3 fingers- press hard- so there is no doubt you are putting even more weight on the dog than any coyote in the world- not stretch that 4th finger and fire the trap. Let me know your results.
IF you are worried about the dog- then guide.
I'd sooner store 1 pair of boots in the back of the truck locked in a baggie with sage or pine or oak leaves or whatever, and change into them at ever set- then worry about loosing coyotes because of the dog postion. Or wear a lucky hat.
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Post by bobwendt on Jun 29, 2007 6:41:36 GMT -6
it`s 8:41 here right now. in the morning. tman, pm me your phone number, I lost it . know i had it, but can`t find it. been more than ince I needed to call you and the son of a gun was nowhere to be found. I`ll write it down this time. what`s this got to do with this post? nuthin` but I do ned the number, lol, can`t say " I`ve got your number!"
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