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Post by trappnman on Jan 23, 2006 16:57:34 GMT -6
It's either tracks AND scent or neither. Not one or the other.
Nonsense. In this discussion, the definition of tracks was and is the PHYSICAL presence of a VISUAL track.
so you can certainly have scent and no tracks. And conversely- depending on how long you think scent will stay- tracks and no scent.
Guess I missed the point.
Sgtwall- I'm not saying that coyotes are avoiding the snares, its more that they are avoiding the immediate area. If the snares are in a 5 acre willow patch on trails- with the daily walk in and the obvious trail in the thicket, the coyotes are staying outside the patch in open fields.
Now I'm not wondering IF coyotes at times avoid human tracks- I know they do.
on remakes- I KNOW that muddy footprints on a pattern reduces remake catches. I've seen it happen so many times, that its acceptance is part of my accumulated coyote knowledge.
I KNOW tracks in snow around traps, cause some coyotes to avoid the set. Yes, they do also in bare ground, but % I believe, based on my trapline observations, is less.
In talking with my old coyote mentor, Wiley E the other day, we discussed this. If I understood him right, he doesn't believe what happens in snow happens all that much in bare ground. That is- all the foolishness coyotes seem to do with snow on the ground.
Something that made me think, is that although I've only had a doz or so coyote jobs where I needed to get an individual coyote, I did in the first or second night. Part of that of course is that the coyote is patterned to a certain area, and placement of traps is easy. and you know the coyotes there.
The one failure I had was this time of year with a little deeper snow. Coyotes were killing calf and feeding on a carcass pile. I set up and trapped it for 2 weeks and nothing. Random patterns, set avoidance, you name it. Very humbling.
I believe its the changed visuals in snow.
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Snow makes canine do funny things. I think O Gorman said coyotes were harder to catch Dec. Some feel coyotes are more finicky in winter.
I think there is a lot of truth in that. I work 10 times harder catching any winter coyote than I ever do catching bare ground coyotes.
Everything is the same- except snow. -------------------------------------------------- What I'm wondering more, how much do snaremen, snaring thickets, woods, open fields.... concern themselves with tracks.
Do you take some care- as the Sgt says- walk on the side of trails?
Check without walking into the "snare pattern?
Don't care, walk where you please?
I'd really like some thoughts for those northern snaremen- stef, musher, anyone?
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Post by musher on Jan 23, 2006 17:28:50 GMT -6
Whenever I set any snare in snow I would hover, if I could, instead of making tracks. I won't hesitate to detour to come in from the opposite side. I'll also go through the thickest stuff because there is less snow there.
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Post by Stef on Jan 23, 2006 17:51:54 GMT -6
Well for sure its a problem with the depth of snow we have here..LoL
I do set snares by the side all the time and stop my snowmobile as close as thick brush as possible and go from there to the snare location. For foothold traps in the snow... I make 99% of my sets from my Snowmobile sleigh "trailer"... Only way I could find and it usually works great. Today, we had some fresh snow 2 days ago and the snow is already a little too heavy... was hard to do good blending job on sets. Only way to adjust this is to pray for a little snow (we'll have some) or you make fake tracks all over the pattern sets at post sets... Well, its another book ;D
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Post by BK on Jan 23, 2006 18:18:28 GMT -6
Snow can be a good thing, making canines trail when it gets deep if it dosen't crust,........along with cold it can make canines act silly about baits with a high fat content. You're painting with kinda a wide brush here Steve.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 23, 2006 19:31:05 GMT -6
Really? I thought I was painting with as small a brush as possible.
1) I know, from my own experience, that tracks in snow affects canines reactions at TRAPS
2) I also know, from my own experience, that tracks in MUD can cause canines to have changed reactions to a set.
3) If someone else wants to do the human scent thing again, they are welcome to it. Again, based on my experiences, and the experiences of dozs of good coyotemen, I know what I think is true and until I see different on the line, I'll continue to believe as I do. To have me say the above, is no more painting with a wide brush then when you say BE sets work. Facts are facts.
Others can have whatever opinion they want on those points- I know them to be facts for me, in my area.
My question however, is how much do tracks affect snaring.
I'm thinking a lot.
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Post by dj88ryr on Jan 23, 2006 19:44:06 GMT -6
Steve, Talk to Dogpaw,Bubcat, Flintman, John Porter, all from VT, NH, and ME, I have seen them say numerous times that when they are trapping coyotes in the snow, they make their sets from the snowmobile. The coyotes follow the snowmobile trail, I have taken them both ways, but never concentrated much on coyotes after snow came as I was trapping water possums.
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Post by bubcat on Jan 23, 2006 20:46:09 GMT -6
We can't snare in NH.
My experience with coyotes (typically) is that they don't want anything to do too much with my footprints.
Is it scent or visual? Ask a coyote. LOL I don't know.
The best tool I have here in NH for snow trapping "on foot" is stone walls. They are everywhere in the woods from the old farms that used to be here.The coyotes cross them at time honored gaps in the walls. Walking tight against a wall (on the opposite side I expect an approach), I can quickly toss in a blind set on my side of a gap, (trap and drag, with the trap in a large fold of wax paper) retrace my steps on backwards, and brush my trail back into the wall with a hemlock bough. These tracks are then invisible to sight, and I can catch coyotes here, where I never will walking a path to a dead cow.
Setting in a skidoo track is the best way to run any kind of line around here. Set right off the sled. Never leave a boot print.
If I do a lot of prebaitting on a location, I can "teach" a coyote to the point where theyseem to look forward to my tracks... right up until I catch the first one, then it's back to hugging the stone walls.
I will also try to run new sets on those occaissions when we are getting a fresh dusting of snow, and the weatherman says we're going to get 2 to 3 inches.
My theory is that footprints are a dead giveaway that I've been there, and a coyote passing by now has a reason to go on "high alert", If he wasn't paying "that much' attention at first, he will be now, and the foot prints are just going to make it all that much harder on the set up.
Better not to leave any.
If I'm going to make a set typical like I would in the fall, and walk right up to it..I have a tool. I keep the extension poles from a 3 piece roof rake. on the end of it, I've removed the "rake" and bolted on just 1/2 of a kids round saucer sled that I found at the dump, and cut in two with a sawzall. (Looks like a giant clam shell on a pole) So it's a light weight, looooong handled, smooth bottomed, side mounted shovel so to speak.
With this, I can reach out aways to scoop up snow to fill tracks, and smooth terrain to erase them, going back as much as 30 ft or so to a main trail that I will walk just the same. These sets will not show my footprints but for the main trail. The 30 ft buffer seems to be plenty.
But, I don't see it that they like my footprints, and I don't know why they don't. My guess is it's got something to do with me trying to kill them.
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Post by Flintman on Jan 24, 2006 6:26:16 GMT -6
The best luck I ever had trapping yotes on snow was when I'd take some beaver carcasses for a ride on my snowmobile. When I'd get into an area with some sign I'd find a spot and chuck a beaver carcass of into the bush without getting of the snowmobile. I kept these spots well baited. As the coyotes got feeding at these spots they would usually go up the snowmobile trail and of it to the bait. It was there that I'd make my set. The first track of the snowmobile trail told me right where to set my trap. Without ever getting of the snowmobile I'd wire a 4 coiled #3 to a cedar shingle using wreath wire and where the snowmobile sunk lower than the actual depth of the snow I'd slid this beneath the snow with the pan of the trap directly underneath the yote track in the snow. They typically walk in the same tracks in the deep snow when they got of the beaten path. The extra chain and drag were buried in the soft snow between the trail and trap. By setting this way the top of the snow was never disturbed. I never used any type of pan cover as it was usually cold enough that the snow was a nice powder. Most of these spots were in cedar thickets so the smell of the cedar shingle never seemed to bother them.
I've never caught huge numbers of yotes on snow but this was the set that worked best for me.
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Post by bubcat on Jan 24, 2006 7:01:25 GMT -6
That is an awesome set up Carl.
The first track of the snowmobile trail told me right where to set my trap.
I've used a fireplace ash shovel to slide the trap in under the first print. Sometimes I use a flour sifter to sift a scoop of snow into the print if I can lean over and see the pan in the hole. I like the shingle idea.
I'll let them make two passes, and watch that first paw print, Third time around, could be twubble for mr coyote. ;D
Cedar... good idea. I've got mostly hemlock, spruce... I've been grinding up boughs in a blender, turning em into powder, and sprinkling these sets with the hemlock dust. Smells faintly of a christmas tree. Seems to make a good cover scent. They're probably not 'interested" in it, but it doesn't seem to bother them, and I think it helps mask anything I left.
Do you shut the sled off at these stops, or keep it running?
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Post by Possum on Jan 24, 2006 8:31:47 GMT -6
No since worrying what can't be avoided. If you have to walk to a set or to a snare site, that's what you have to do. I don't dwell on it, I just don't stop and have a picnic. Do what you have to do and leave. If you can check from afar or by driving by, do that. If you have to stop and climb out of the truck to see the location, do that.
I've made enough first night catches to know sometimes the coyotes don't give a hoot and seen enough tracks in the snow near my sets to know sometimes they do.
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Post by primetime on Jan 24, 2006 8:38:14 GMT -6
Good posts so far.
I think what we are seeing is the reason why Bait Stations in deeper snow and Cold weather are the "Go To" snare locations.
Lets say it's footprints. I posted this before, but it's worth repeating. You make footprints all over one section of a coyotes habitat. The only thing keeping that coyote there is cover and rabbits/mice whatever. 1/4 mile over is similar habitat with the same food source and cover - no human footprints. Your a Coyote?? Where would you hunt and spend your time? Humans are your #1 enemy...
Now you've got a Bait Station. It's cold the snow is deep hunting is hard. This area contains an excellent food source. 1/4 mile away, 1/2 mile away THIS food source doesn't exist. I think a coyote is a little more willing to put up with the footprints.
And you can not compare this time of year to any other time of year. There is far less human activity in the woods right now. Farming activity is even at an all time low this time of year. I think the coyotes get used to that. You are also talking about coyotes that have been around the block a fair amount over the last 3 months. Trapping, Hunting, you name it.
Fall trapping - Where are you setting up? Fields, away from the coyotes.
Snaring - Where are you setting up? In the woods, the coyotes home.
Would you have better success snaring if you treated it like Fall trapping? Set up out away from the woods or on the edges. Fence crossings, and the like.
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Post by Stef on Jan 24, 2006 8:47:11 GMT -6
I personally feel that foothold traps are superior in deep snow than snares.
Have to go check couple sets...Later!
Stef
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Post by primetime on Jan 24, 2006 9:48:33 GMT -6
It's either tracks AND scent or neither. Not one or the other.
Nonsense. In this discussion, the definition of tracks was and is the PHYSICAL presence of a VISUAL track.
Did we not also discuss that one set of tracks commonly have canine walking them on 3 day checks? (So maybe it's neither - answer? Daily Disturbance)
I understand that you can not "Not have scent". And until you can fly you can not "Not have tracks."
You will need at LEAST one set of tracks per snare, because we can't fly or hover. So if it's the multiple tracks and not the scent, just do as a coyote does and step in your same tracks in and out. That will limit the visual tracks at the set location.
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Post by trappnman on Jan 24, 2006 14:30:42 GMT -6
as I said, I'm talking visible tracks- not the act of leaving invisible "scent" tracks. Visible tracks.
walking on a bare grass field- you leave NO visible tracks. When I'm fall trapping- I leave very few VISIBLE tracks.
So, in the definition of the "thread starter"- this thread concerns VISIBLE tracks.
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Post by primetime on Jan 24, 2006 14:59:14 GMT -6
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Really.
So snare experts and beginners what do you feel about Visible Tracks? We are all trying to learn here, so post up. There is really no right or wrong answer, but opinions would be nice. Something to help draw conclusions from.
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Post by Steve Gappa on Jan 24, 2006 15:02:44 GMT -6
I think musher summed it up.
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Post by coydog on Jan 24, 2006 15:15:03 GMT -6
Kind of a hard subject to draw a single conclusion, when in reality it could be a variety of things. For one, all coyotes are not created equally. Some have totally different experiences than those over the hill. Certain shy to begin with coyotes may very well be easily put on gaurd with tracks in snow, while others dont seem to care your there. Could be the disturbance of activity too close to where the are "cored" at the time. Could be farmer Joe's 1000lb steer went down and shifted how they are working their territory. Why things sometimes happen certain times a year is a mystery in our minds most times, and most of us that are limited to time/seasons sometimes end up scratching ourselves bald before we find the answers.
Great topic, and great input, but hard one to draw a single conclusion to.
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Post by dogpaw on Jan 24, 2006 16:20:09 GMT -6
i can,t really help on the snaring because we don,t have it here in vermont. on the foot prints in the snow to me is a bad thing, you are the one always talking about the visual thing on coyotes some things they see turns them off i would say foot prints combined with human scent is a big turn off in snow. most all k-9 trapping from dec.1st here is snow trapping most all sets are made off snowsleds, atv, or pickup. if you got to check snares every 24hrs. and you got to walk to check them i feel you fighting a losing battle unless a storm comes in the night before and covers what you did the day before, then you could get lucky. i would try to make the coyotes come to where you could set snares and be able to check them without leaving tracks. k-9 locations don,t have to be dead on the money in the winter placing bait stations in places when you want them to come. set them out early and they will come times are tough and they got to eat even if they don,t eat they are going to come and mark and see who eslse has been there. set them up just before a snow and check from a distance. hopefully hornhunter from maine will get on here.he has snared alot of coyotes on snow with bait stations.
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Post by musher on Jan 24, 2006 16:28:26 GMT -6
This stopping the snowmobile or not stuff is a good point. I often don't stop the truck or bike if I'm making a set on the trail. I don't like the dripping from the tailpipe or that first cloud of exhaust. Dopey me?
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Post by JWarren on Jan 24, 2006 16:51:20 GMT -6
In my opinion if you have to crawl into a bramble with sticks gouging the hell out of you you are leaving 1000x more scent that if only your feet touched the ground. I think it is scent alot of times causing coyote avoidance but just a guess.
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