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Post by trappnman on Mar 16, 2005 9:15:25 GMT -6
here is the complete edit- made after Bob said I misquoted him and I said sorry- I'll make the change.
Am I missing somethiong here? What more do you want "reflected" in the edit"
ah......let me read what I posted...
here it is...FOX...here it is again...FOX.
I have zero problems with swivels with coyotes on short chains... but wasn't I talking......
FOX?
btw- I agree trappers who say a swivel at the trap is wasted...
« Last Edit: Mar 15th, 2005, 6:46pm by Steve Gappa »
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Post by Edge on Mar 16, 2005 9:23:52 GMT -6
A J hook at the base is indeed a swivel,or at least it has been for the last hundred years or so.
A good example of no swivel at the trap would be a lap link around the baseplate connected DIRECTLY TO THE CHAIN.Which was at one time,very common.
The original quote(which I have already been thru at least once)said"I agree with BOBW **and other western trappers**...."
Since none of the "other western trappers" checked in;I figured you'd stay with that.I was mostly curious as to who the "other" western trappers were.
But lo and behold looks like it was all one big misunderstanding as you too believe in a swivel at the trap.
Edge
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Post by trappnman on Mar 16, 2005 9:31:20 GMT -6
did I say Western trappers like Bob in the original post?
Yes, I did.
did I edit it so that my words stood alone?
Yes, I did. ___________________________________________
Personally- I didn't consider a j- hook a swivel for the purposes of this discussion - (for example, on the otter traps we had 3 swivels but 9 swiveling points with the shockspring) but since thats the definition...I'll modify my statement......make it as definitive as I can.....
I don't believe a BOX SWIVEL is needed to fasten the chain to the trap when using shoret chains for coyotes..
Yes, I DO believe some type of SWIVELING POINT is needed.
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Post by Wright Brothers on Mar 16, 2005 9:33:58 GMT -6
If every j hook is counted as a swivel I have 5 on my chains. That explains how some can have so many swivels on such a short chain lmbo.
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 16, 2005 9:37:55 GMT -6
you guys! you all need to go set some coyote traps. I`m having a ball, get to drive everywhere now, first time I could drive and not fight mud since last august. perfect, gets down in the mid 20`s at night and 40 and sunny in the day. coond all died and the pottos must have winter killed. No hunters in the field and no fasrmers plowing or running over traps. This is just like the good old days when our falls were dry and sunny. The birds are tweating and spring is knocking on the door, so won`t be but a few more runs, but life is real good right now. swivel, schmivel.
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Post by wolferlong on Mar 16, 2005 10:03:35 GMT -6
...aahhh..what the hell...I can give my 2 cents worth..Stef..your pictures will tell my story...First off I run in excess of 300 traps..so my sample size is more than most and less than others...western environment..gumbo..sand...clay..coal shale..you name it we got it...18 inches of chain..give or take..3 swivels..sterling for 2..crunchproof at the iowa disposable for cutting the rivet and going...trap of choice is #4 montgomery...dogless...fully modified...4 coiled.. Back to the pictures...IN MY EXPERIENCE...those short chains are the cause of that mounding effect..those photos show clearly how snubbed up the fox are...fox typically as most know, go round and round..fighting the trap entirely different than a coyote...I dont want him snubbed up like that..I want him out exercising..not staring at the foot and trap..I almost never see that mounding effect..coon in mud sometimes..not coyote..not fox...and badger just dig a deep hole and are down it so you dont even see him..Many times on a big hole set the fox or coyote clean out the hole and are down it as well..out of weather..all considerations when on long checks..24 hours dont fly here...No doubt their is more shoulder damage on long chains..coyote shoulders mainly..The other BIG THING for me and the pictures show this well is the slop factor..I want a long enough chain to set the trap ON MY KNEE..not up to my elbows in mud...granted remakes are out of the circle..but if the ground is at all gooey I dont care to be putting my trap in it too set it..the trap is just plain easier to work on with longer chain...Stake pulling.. to me ..should no longer be an issue to anyone with the advent of the IOWA DISSPOSABLE..So chain length in that regard FOR ME doesnt matter...They dont budge them with proper cable length...I cant imagine trapping without these stakes...The labor saved..weight wise..pounding wise..holding power..I will never go back to rebar..I feel my most important swivel is at the trap and at the cable end...Soapweed and sage tend to foul the center swivel if there is fouling..so that one I could take or leave..these are just my findings on long checks...on the 24hr deal I doubt it makes much difference..Do what works for you..I PERSONALLY wouldnt have twin loop chain..cold shuts..or rivet at the trap...but my circumstances are different than most..and I realize that..so whatever works for you...Just an example of how the majority of WESTERNERS approach it..
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Post by wolferlong on Mar 16, 2005 10:05:33 GMT -6
your too damn happy BOB..must a got a little this morning ??
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Post by trappnman on Mar 16, 2005 10:14:37 GMT -6
me too 1080-
I agree with everything you said in your post-
my whole point was the mounding effect with short chains on fox.
and you are correct- in my conditions, on 24 hour check with coyotes- it doesn't much matter.
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Post by wolferlong on Mar 16, 2005 10:21:44 GMT -6
HOLY S*&T...we agreed on something...I better reread what I wrote...are you feeling well ?? I think Im doing OK..send this to the archives....fast....
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 16, 2005 10:25:34 GMT -6
nope, got a big old female big as a watermelon and in a spot where the weather ran me out and a coyote killed 3 fox in a row, shredded, couldn`t even taxidermy them. This was last fall. Everything I did to catch this old bitty went sour. Set a 1/8th cable for her in that perfect one time set. Caught another frigging red and she busted that one too. tracked and blind setted her and dang possums, coon, you name it. finally the fall monsoons ran me out and that old bitty owed me 3 fox and you know she would have done the same or more next fall. She had to go. It was the only coyote there that I know of except who ever bred her. His arseshould be mine tomorrow. She imported him as she was lone wolfing all last fall. I know it was her as she left a peculiar track from an old injury. Well , I busted her buns this morning and positive it is the same one I wanted. And she won`t be popping 7-8 fox killing pups either. That genetic line was officially terminated this morning! And another common coyote too at another spot, just a payck kind. My pig farmer had my courtesy butcher hog dressed and hanging for me this a.m. too. and the sun is out and spring birds tweeting. Maybe I`ll get lucky tonight on top of all this!
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Post by trappnman on Mar 16, 2005 10:28:08 GMT -6
Did I say agree?...yikes...errr ahh........ Actually, I agree with a lot of what you say.... I've never quarrelled with your ablilites or your knowledge......... in repsonse to 1080s question to Bob---- nope, got a big old female big as a watermelon I won't tell Kathy you said that! ;D
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Post by bobwendt on Mar 16, 2005 10:35:27 GMT -6
ya, she doesn`t allow me to mess around and it would definitly cause troubles. "A guy walks into a bar with a parrot on his shoulder and the bartender says where`d you get that ugly thing, and the parrot says......"
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Post by Edge on Mar 16, 2005 10:46:37 GMT -6
1080 says:
**I PERSONALLY wouldnt have twin loop chain..cold shuts..or rivet at the trap.**
And TMan says: "agree with everything you said in your post-"
No wonder confusement abounds.LMAO.
edited note: no confusion- I obviously agreed with his general statements and who am I to disagree with his personal statements about what he likes or works for him?
1080,I too, loathe twin loop,and cold shuts,but so far on shorter checks I am happy with the rivet at the trap.Next season I will still be running the end chain system,but with all lammed jaws,all season. The following year I will be running all baseplated and center swivelled iron...........I have been happy with center swiveling in the past;so I dont really expect to dislike it now,but it will be intersting to compare one season to the next in foot damage,etc,now that I have someplace to catch both reds and grays.
Edge
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Post by wolferlong on Mar 16, 2005 10:56:50 GMT -6
Dont get your hopes too high on the marked improvement in the two types...Keep in mind the modifications were designed and IMPLEMENTED by 2 western trappers for the sole purpose of LONG CHECKS...24 hours proves very little in the way of modifications...The intent PRIMARILY is for 5..7..or longer checks...They do indeed show incredible value the longer that animal is in the trap...For the short duration many of you have for trap checks you may well be ahead to just laminate and call it good...your call...The true benefits show in longer check intervals....so dont expect too much...just an FYI..
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Post by Edge on Mar 16, 2005 11:00:00 GMT -6
**For the short duration many of you have for trap checks you may well be ahead to just laminate and call it good**
Yep,thats why I ran reg jaw this year and am having everything lammed for next.I sometimes run a fur trapping 24 hr line;but my legal check time is 72,thats why I intend to test the center swiveling.And if its a bonus on the rest of the line,all the better.
FWIW,I was pretty impressed with the lack of damage with the reg jaws this year.
Edge
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Post by Steve Gappa on Mar 16, 2005 11:01:36 GMT -6
on a 24 hour check, with small traps- found no difference in center mounting or end mounting in either the postion of the foot in the trap or foot damage.
the Beav did the same experiment (half and half for a year) with the same results.
fwiw
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Post by wolferlong on Mar 16, 2005 11:16:01 GMT -6
Good to hear that somewhere east of the Miss has a 72 hour check..Take full advantage of it..the key is learning to hide your animals...hope you can make the 72hrs work for you..especially with the price of fuel and vehicles and such...
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Post by Zagman on Mar 16, 2005 13:04:49 GMT -6
I think the thing that you said was that the swivel at the trap was the LEAST important, whereas MANY people feel it is the MOST important....that's all!
Nuff said....
MZ
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Post by Edge on Mar 16, 2005 13:05:25 GMT -6
I ran a totally different way this year,kept my miles per coyote very reasonable,but tried like heck to stay within the 24,mainly for future live trapping endeavors.
Next season I will fully implement the longer check time.
I heartily concur that the 24 hr check reduces the needs for mods,I have caught a pile of fur with traps of questionable caliber........even on the forementioned traps with the lap link on the baseplate directly to the chain.....LOL!
My whole quest is to,with 2 sizes of trap,go from ADC to Fur to Live Market without a whole bunch of different gear;I just dont want to implement something that doesnt gain me anything.
Edge
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Post by trappnman on Mar 16, 2005 13:16:58 GMT -6
"I think the thing that you said was that the swivel at the trap was the LEAST important, whereas MANY people feel it is the MOST important....that's all!"
Yes, I do feel that way- with the definition of box added.. I understand the confusion- like I said- to me a swivel is something separate from a J-hook- being new to the modification game- I was going by dnr terminology-
I do think that a BOX swivel isn't as important at the trap than elsewhere on the chain.
And the why- is simply the mounding, clogging action on short chains with Fox and other small critters.
If I have a fouled swivel OR J-hook- its 99.% of the time the one AT the trap. My experiences only-
I'm probably 50/50 on this setup (one at the trap (box) one not at the trap) I see no noticible difference in performance of the trap- ie catching coyotes.
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