|
Post by trappnman on Jan 9, 2005 10:31:03 GMT -6
I'd like to pose a simple question.
What % of coyotes that are aware of a set....work it?
I personally feel that a fairly large % of coyotes don't even bother to a work a set.
And in late season...after all the young, dumb and easy ones are gone...the % goes up.
Comments?
|
|
|
Post by DaveM on Jan 9, 2005 10:48:22 GMT -6
For me, it seems 3 out of 4 will come within 5 ft of a set. But only half of those 3 or less work the set enough to get caught.
Weird thing happened the other day. ( In a week we had 28" of snow melt plus over 5 inches of rain. Its the Bob W curse)
I was making boot tacks in the mud ten inches deep around my sets. Caught one yote that waalked up to a set, snapped the trap, turned and went 8 feet, smack into another trap. The yote tracks were sunk 5 inches in the mud. The biggest oldest one I caught all season. Go Figure.
|
|
|
Post by Stef on Jan 9, 2005 10:50:17 GMT -6
Here, when I see things like you said... they always work sets when its real nasty outside... They can ignored sets for days and suddenly, snow, heavy rain, ice etc... and traps are full... Stef
|
|
|
Post by mac on Jan 9, 2005 16:38:25 GMT -6
Trappingman writes: I'd like to pose a simple question.
What % of coyotes that are aware of a set....work it?
I personally feel that a fairly large % of coyotes don't even bother to a work a set.
And in late season...after all the young, dumb and easy ones are gone...the % goes up.
Comments?
I think you have it pretty well figured. There are a lot of guys operating that don't know what you posted. Too bad as it is the truth. Mac
|
|
|
Post by Hornhunter on Jan 9, 2005 17:37:04 GMT -6
Two years ago I didn't think there was hardly a coyote along the frozen roads I was trapping. Untill it snowed and that told the truth. hardly gave any sets a look.
|
|
|
Post by ChrisM on Jan 9, 2005 21:50:24 GMT -6
A particular animal might not work a particular set today. Not to worry, cause he might work it tomorrow.
Or..... he might not ever work that particular set. Not to worry, cause I will have other sets.
And they ALL WILL WORK sets. Different locations, different sets, different smells. They all can be caught.
|
|
|
Post by Stef on Jan 9, 2005 23:33:17 GMT -6
Stef
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jan 10, 2005 7:37:14 GMT -6
Chris- so you do not believe that "shy" coyotes exist?
"Shy" for any multitude of reasons?
Lets define it- coyotes that shy away from any lure smells, disturbances, sites?
|
|
|
Post by ChrisM on Jan 10, 2005 8:35:02 GMT -6
Sure there are some "shy" yippers out there. But they're not nearly as common as some believe. IMO
Observing tracks on locations for better than thirty years (12 months a year for the last 16 years) has convinced me that the vast majority of coyotes will work a set IF they know its there.
I'm convinced that by far, the majority of times when a coyote walks by a set, its because he simply didnt know it was there. Wrong wind direction, no eye appeal etc.. you know the drill.
Think about it, thats the reason everyone preaches more than one set per location. Sure the doubles are neat but the real value is in raising the odds of catching the one coyote when he comes thru.
Even the animals that are deemed "shy" or "wise" because tracks clearly show they refused to work a set, are commonly picked up at another set either on the same location or elsewhere on his travels. Even the same type of set with the same lure. Who knows why he refused that particular set? Personally I believe that visual are the most frequent reason but thats just my theory. Probably some reason know only to the coyote. Probably just another instance of a typical coyotes unpredictable behavior. Somethims they're just not in the mood. Sometimes they will be in that same set next trip thru. To quote a famous trapper.."I pick the place, the coyote picks the time."
Are there some coyotes that wont work any set, ever? Trick question. I do believe that in areas of high pressure, an animal can get to where it shys from any commercial or conpounded lure or bait. But these same animals will still work a "set" if its made correctly with the right odor.
Think of it this way. Will ANY coyote stop poking his nose in natural holes he incounters? Will ANY coyote stop checking out the odor of his own kind in his area? In short....will ANY coyote stop being a coyote?
With these truely (but very rare) "wise" coyotes, the trick is to catch them doing what they will (must) continue to do. Catch them being a coyote! A naturaly occuring hole along his travels either left empty or containing a dead PD or perhaps a fresh mouse nest.....a clump of sod with a small shot of urine taken from a bladder or a fresh dropping squeezed directly from an intestine..... Surely these qualify as "sets"
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 10, 2005 9:21:52 GMT -6
Good post Chris. I alos beleive that some coyotes will not work sets in there imidate home range for 1-3 days because of a visual used that is out of place the first time by,ie: cow bone,skull etc,but after a few days it becomes part of his/hers surroundings and then up they come bold as can be and whacko you got them. Iv'e seen tracks that they approach the set give it a casual once over and down the trail, then 2-3 days later there they are waiting for you. Ageing works wonders for coyote sets when dealing with higher % of adult coyotes, that have seen things before, also as stated be as natural in your presentation as you can be a coyote has to work natural things at some point. I like to use mouse/rat holes at the base of a yucca, and add fresh ground mouse and blend in well, a very natural presentation for a coyote to work, all I did was plant the trap and add bait to an already natural situation, with authentic smells there to begin with.
|
|
|
Post by vttrapper on Jan 10, 2005 12:11:48 GMT -6
I like ChrisMs thinking. Another set that can take a "coyote being a coyote" is the trail set. Quick to make, very little disturbance and a killer for those coyotes ignoring sets. I also agree that coyotes can become uninterested in compounded lures or baits. This year i had great luck in December using mostly straight gland lures i made and not just coyote glands. No additives or "drugstore" ingrediants. Straight glands rotted down to a point and glycerine to make it pasty. Simple, and available right on the line.
frank
|
|
|
Post by 3n on Jan 10, 2005 13:48:50 GMT -6
"Elaborate sets are much less successful than simple sets,natural baits are superior to wind mixtures." Wiley Carroll.
|
|
|
Post by MChewk on Jan 11, 2005 5:49:00 GMT -6
Good posts, Chris good reasoning. Late winter snow on the FROZEN ground...I like to take a strong large trap pound a spot out as best I can, drive stake and bed trap in hay/straw chaff. Scatter the mess around place gland or urine on clumped up chaff and be gone. The eye appeal is terrific, the trap stays working and is blended in well and it is simple. Chris' eye appeal statement really hit home as the last several seasons working in the snow has been an eye full. Also liked the comment on setting multiple traps...really helps a guys competitivel edge out to improve the odds to catch fur.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jan 11, 2005 12:29:02 GMT -6
You know that I agree with most if not all that you said Chris-
A very important point is that (yes, we are going THERE again! ) studies show that coyotes are much harder...to become interested in a set and to work a set- In their core or home range territory (that defined as the area where a coyote spends at least 60% of his time). Both visuals and scents.
Yet- in fringe (unfamilar) aeas- the same visuals and the same scents provke entirely different response and action- coyotes work these sets much more aggressively.
Now- NO ONE take this the wrong way....but why do predator men so often try for SPECIFIC coyotes with snares, M-44s, planes, calling rather than a trap?
Time.
So a hard to catch coyote really isn't pursued long enough in many situations- including fur trapping.
Gubment folks take the quickest, most efficient way to take that specific yote.
So- lets ask this...if you just had traps- in a reasonable amount of time- say 2-3 weeks to pick a span- assuming that coyote was still in the area- can you catch em all?
I'm starting to see action around my sets- had a snaped trap with saran wrap this moring- trapping 100% of the dirt over the trap- lesson learned.
In several cases- the coyotes are aware of the sets- but aren't real aggressive- that is, being very cautious. No diggin, no tricks...but stand away from the set and "look" at it.
This is with 1-2 inches of fresh snow...no visuals were present. Lots of little puzzles....
I'll get him tomorrow....
Heres another little thought- do coyotes work sets differently in 1) normal fall weather 2) severe cold 3) snow?
A famous trapper once said- " Every coyote trapper everywhere, is going to have periods in which he feels he doesn't know a damn thing about coyotes- and if he says he doesn't- he's either lying or hasn't caught many coyotes."
Comments?
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 11, 2005 14:44:43 GMT -6
Tman, I think at this time of year, if you would give good "baits" more action along with urine and gland lures you'll find a little more response from the coyotes. I think the majority of the coyotes caught on mutli compounded lures are of the younger age classes, as much of these coyotes are gone from your area and others, the adult population at this time of the year have 2 things going on finding food and mating. I have found that "curiosity" lures at this time of the year, just don't cut it with the majority of the adult coyote population. They have been down that road or just don't want to waster the time effort to get much closer, unless it has a natural appeal ie food source. I find good "bait" and natural baits far out produce, the "curiosity" lures at this time of the year. I'm thinking if you have a whole that coyote wants to be smelling something of a food substance comming from it to get a real good positive response, or a good coyote smell from a flat set with a turd and shot of urine, picking on there mating instincts. I like to make either a big mess or no mess at a set at this time of year, the in between I just haven't had near the results with. Seeing the bare spot amongest the snow covered back drop or the tell tale sign of disturbance, just doesn't produce like it will other times of the year. Good mouse baits, ground bobcat,horse meat, anything natural to your area, will out produce many of the multi ingrediant lures in my area. I use some canine call and skunk essance for calling, but most is bait, gland lure and urine.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jan 11, 2005 15:00:47 GMT -6
you might be right- but I am using bait- stefs test bait- at al lthe sts- with a lure
|
|
|
Post by trappincoyotes39 on Jan 11, 2005 19:27:20 GMT -6
Tman do you know what base the bait is? Also are sets well blended? I have found many more winter, late winter refusals with what I would call eye sore sets, one that clearly sticks out from the natural surroundings. Keep going with a good bait and they will work them. I have had excellent luck with Cavens hiawatha valley bait and the fresh mouse bait he makes as well. Find a mousing area and those coyotes will work your sets, much easier at this time of year versus a "exotic" type lure.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jan 11, 2005 20:02:14 GMT -6
Stef tells me nothing... eye appeal was definitely a concern- you know my fondness for flat sets- and with ground frozen solid these sets are flats sets- with 2 exceptions. so the snow- blends them. It isn't often coyotes perplex me like this- although..sad story is that because I was too cheap to keep replacing screens I could have had 2 coyotes. Zags said I couldn't count them though so--was going to pull tomorrow..tonight 20s early then rising. I flashed up the sets today and added urine. tomorrow, am going to spike each one with a half of either a rat/mink carcass...then 2-3 inches of snow forecast tomorrow... we shall see. And Z...you wouldn't believe it...saw THREE classic kickbacks today...one was a double kickback with a separte coyote on each side of a urinated on grass clump...
|
|
|
Post by ChrisM on Jan 12, 2005 8:50:57 GMT -6
"Core vs. fringe"......No, I'm not going there. I have no interest in worthless research that has no pratical application on a trapline.
Coyotes crap, howl at the moon and eat sheep. What more do you need to know? lol
"Why do predator men so often try for SPECIFIC coyotes with snares, M-44s, planes, calling rather than a trap?"
Truth is, next to calling, traps are my favorite tool for specific coyotes. Calling is great when it works. You sometimes can resolve a complaint the first morning ya work it. BUT its is worthless unless you can locate the coyotes, and sometimes this can take days or even weeks! Many times if I left the complaint with nothing on the ground untill I could get em found and shot, I'd lose a bunch more sheep!
Snares are great in the right country. Here, I'll bet I've snared less than a dozen "complaint" coyotes in the last 16 years. Too much livestock. No woven wire fences.
Air power is great also but subject to the same limitations as calling. Also very ineffective in a lot of country due to cover such as trees and crops.
M-44s are good winter maintence tool. Allows a fellow to cover LOTS of ground since they dont have to be checked often like traps and they are reasonably weather proof. Seldom used to target specific coyotes except on calving grounds. During the summer I rarely even have any in the truck.
This past August on a bad killing complaint we removed over 25 adult coyotes in 30 days. Four wet females! All hitting the same bunch of sheep. Four were snared (in perfect trail between the fence and the first row of corn) one was called. One was night shot in the sheep. In six trips, the plane found and shot bout a half dozen (adults and pups) and found one den. SEVENTEEN were trapped. 15 adults and two big pups.
Of course other trappers operate their areas diferently due to their condidtions.
"So a hard to catch coyote really isn't pursued long enough in many situations- including fur trapping."
No doubt true for fur trapping, but here, with ADC I take a good portion of them with traps. I just like traps! Have confidence in them and enjoy the "art" of making the set. Without question, the biggest limitations on traps is not their efectiveness, but the weather and having huge districts to cover and thus not being able to get back often enough.
"Gubment folks take the quickest, most efficient way to take that specific yote."
Yep! Absoultly. And often times thats a trap.
"if you just had traps- in a reasonable amount of time- say 2-3 weeks to pick a span- assuming that coyote was still in the area- can you catch em all?"
Obviously depends on the size of the area and the number of coyotes. Remove a pair from their area? Yes, I believe so in most cases, access and weather permitting. Remove all coyotes from a county? Thats something else!
Coyotes standing off and looking at flat sets covered with snow........ Basically just an odor coming from beneath the snow. You might want to try some different lures.
Coyotes do have pereiods when they seem rather disinterested or "moody" but typically They work lures very well this time of the year out here. M-44s are a very good tool bout now with the right bait.
I strongly favor baits and food based lures. Also gland lures. Year round, but especially when its cold/snowy. Forget those funny "curiosity" lures. Get ya something that smells like a free lunch. Road killed deer in a bottle! They gotta eat!
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Jan 12, 2005 9:21:17 GMT -6
I've trapped other periods of Jan with identical or worse conditions with same lures, methods with success. One thing I should add- for what it is worth- I did have to completely remake the sets because of frozen rain the first 5 nights. And actually- to be fair- I "lost" 2 coyotes due to me. So- in worn out flat country we had success at 3 sets. Success meaning working the set. But- I do agree with bait in the winter and will be baiting with natural baits today. _______________________________________ Remove a pair from their area? Yes, I believe so in most cases, access and weather permitting. Remove all coyotes from a county? Thats something else!
Chris- you are either pregnant or you are not.... my original question was ALL the time... in most cases....me too...well, maybe.... -------------------------------------------------------------- you are sure a stubborn old galute.... this is what the research showed....and they just took the next step to conclude WHY. Even the animals that are deemed "shy" or "wise" because tracks clearly show they refused to work a set, are commonly picked up at another set either on the same location or elsewhere on his travels.
|
|