THere ain't a coyote I can't catch....Part ????

[ChrisM]

Nope I'm not pregnant. And I'm already on record as saying ALL coyotes can be trapped.

To your question, Yes! Assumming weather and access they can be trapped ALL THE TIME!

BUT it might not ALWAYS be within your imposed 2-3 week time limit.

[trappnman]

so what I am trying to get you to tell me- is how long have you trapped for a specific coyote before you trapped him/her?

A very interesting thread- I love it!

Its hard with written words to convey exactly what I am curious about-

let me try again. I'll set the stage . And yes, this is hypothtical- of course it is. If the Plato/Socrates learning method isn't your cup of tea, excuse me...

Place: Joe's Farm

Situation: you see a pair of coyote tracks.

History: The area was previously periodically theroughout the year and heavy this past fall

QUERY

Can these coyotes ALWAYS be caught- there, that time, that place, etc, etc.........

Or are some just not going to get caught.... there, that time, that place, etc, etc.........

Down the road, next month, next fall..... sure. I beleive so.

but under conditions as descibed- I'm not so sure.

[ChrisM]

Plato/Socrates......I'm not familiar with those authors. I looked thru Tim Cavens catalog, both books and videos and found nothing by these men. Help me out.

"there, that time, that place, etc, etc........."

No, I certainly dont believe they can always be caught at THAT location at THAT time. But I wouldnt bet much that they couldn't be caught at THAT location given enough time, as long as they continue to visit the location. Whats "enough" would vary and only be a guess on my part. "I pick the place, the coyote picks the time!"

As I have said, they ALL can be caught. But sometimes it requires a different location, set, smell etc... Sometimes its simply easier to catch them elsewhere than continue to bang your head on a wall at a location that for whatever reason is not successful. Look, if it was easy and simplistic women would be doing it!

How long have some taken? Hmmm, I dont know, seems like some took forever! I can recall a few that took thirty days or so. BUT that does not mean these animals were any sharper than the norm. Sometimes they dont come back as often as we'd like. Sometimes we may not have them figured as we think. Sometimes things just happen! He works a set and ya miss him. Sets get rained out etc..

As for Joes farm. Yes, as long as they are still working the area they can be caught. Why couldnt they?

[trappnman]

I have to say- I love the "I pick the place, they pick the time" perspective.

Plato, et al..I forgot you were just a Dakota cowboy....

they trapped ideas ...before your time....back when Wily started building his house....

So- lets look at that situation where it once took you 30 days to take a specific coyote working an area.

Why?

[ChrisM]

If I knew that it wouldnt have taken so long! lol

[Edge]

**If I knew that it wouldnt have taken so long! lol**

LMFAO!!

[ChrisM]

Like your famous trapper quote, it was probably one of those times when I felt I didnt know a damn thing about coyotes!

I recall another one. Wiley was riding along with me checking some traps. My next stop had two good sets on a stock damn. When we came over the hill there were four coyotes right on the damn. Yes! a double! Cussed myself for not setting more traps.....Then I watched in amazement as all four scattered like quail!

Damn the luck! Traps no doubt sprung or froze in. Nope! Both working just fine. Track all around them! sigh.....

Wiley was unberable the rest of the day!

[MChewk]

Been there Chris! except it was four traps and FIVE yotes....no catchs! Pissed the rest of the day! lol

[trappnman]

LOL- would really have liked to been there Chris!

what was the history on that stock dam after that incident?

[ChrisM]

I borrowed these quotes from the "theory" thread. I didnt want to hijack that thread.

"I'll see sign...and enough to know that coyotes WERE in the area- they were just not working OLD sets or NEW.

so... it doesn't matter that if IN THEROY- any coyote that walks can be taken- PRACTICALITY shows us that this is not, at least for me, not true."

Steve, I think you are overlooking a vital element here.

When you are fur trapping you are not trying to catch every coyote. Now obviously you want to catch all you can and you don't like missing them, and if there's fresh sign you want to catch them. BUT wanting to "catch all you can" IS NOT the same as wanting and needing to "catch them all."

When was the last time you said to yourself...."I'm not going to put those mink/coon sets out after all" or "I'm not going to extend my canine line on those new permissions this week." and instead spent the day tracking a coyote around with the determination that "I'm going to catch THIS coyote!" Or "THESE coyotes"

Oh sure, when the average fur trapper sees a coyote is standing back from his set or shying from a catch circle he will put in a fresh set, or try a new lure etc.. But when these dont work how many trappers take the effort and more importantly the TIME to track this coyote back to another location and try him there? Or observe where hes been digging at some gopher mounds and put in a set there using no lure or bait?

The answer..I'll bet close to none. Its simply not in their interest. There's no money in it. They are better off to take the cream and go.

As I've said many times, its an entirely different mindset. Many furtrappers can not mentally do it. Just as a lot of good ADC men do not have the mindset to run longlines for fur. Thats not a slam on either group at all.

Some can do both. Switch gears as needed.

I believe I've visited with you enough, read enough of your articles etc... to say I have no doubt you have the knowledge and ability to catch any coyote you want to. But you have to be able to set your mind to catch THAT coyote, or THESE coyotes. A lot of people can not do that.

Thats the trick. Or secret if you will.

So yes, there are coyoytes there that you didnt catch. But you're not trying to "catch them all", you're trying to "catch all you can." There's a difference.

Hope that makes some sence.

[trappnman]

Good post! worth the price of admission for sure!

Oddly enough- I've never had to devote that much time to a problem coyote. While I have only done relatively few such jobs, in all cases I was able to take the problem coyotes in a day or two using normal sets made where they were coming in.

I fully realize that time would catch up with the above- but in all cases so far it was at the right time of year and they were undisturbed coyotes. These farmers here don't harasses them- they put up with it or if too bad call me.

I say this only to point out that I do on occasion target specifc yotes.

And in fur trapping- you are of course correct. Thats fur trapping.

And I too have spent many, many hours following coyote tracks- just like I've done for coon, mink, etc.

I know I'm trying to put a very fine point to my query....but really, thats the essense of it.

I concur 100% that coyotes in different parts of their territory act differently. Respond to things differently.

Experience has shown me this (research has told me why)....one example...a coyote at one location...every night digs traps. A set at the next farm always untouched. One day...the digging stops and the same day that neighboring set has a coyote. Coincidence?

Or collar a coyote- see where she avoids location where she is caught.... gives it that half circle walk around- catch her a week later down the road.

Or different looks- had a female that was hanging out a 1 farm. Farmer would see her almost every day at trap location. She would mess with every set...sets made in the old fall locations (this was spring) almost nightly (snow). I dicked with her at least 3 weeks- I had 1 more collar to put on, this spot was close to home, and I had a coyote there....easier to dither than to move.

Finally was into gopher trapping- so took 2 buckets of dirt, poured them into pile at end of road, added 3-4 gophers...no lure, no urine..2 days later there she was.
This might have even been after a conversation with ithtr you or Scott.

Lets look at this another way. If it takes 3, 4 weeks or more- to the point where you are tracking her through the dust, devising oddball sets, take extra measures...

...you have at least a somewhat spooky coyote. For whatever reason.

And every area seems to get these. I think in fur trapping- esp the run and gun guys- you think you have them out there yet - and a fresh snow or rain shows theres still yotes there- they are just not responding. But as they move and shuffle- you take them in new places, new sets.

I still believe that there are some coyotes- for whatever reason- that will not work a "normal" set....

But I do go along with the thought that given the determination.....and time....you should be able to trap any coyote out there.

You missed my question Chris- how did you do at that stock dam after that? Did those sets produce?

________________________________________

[ChrisM]

"Oddly enough- I've never had to devote that much time to a problem coyote."

Actually, the truth is, I rarely do either. In most every case when a coyote takes a while it because of difficulty locating it/them. I've said many time....Once ya find them its easy to kill them. But sometimes finding them can take a while.

Its not rocket science. Many of the trappes on this board have the ability to do it if they set their mind to it.

"And I too have spent many, many hours following coyote tracks- just like I've done for coon, mink, etc."

Yep, as have I and any other trapper who is serious about learning. But, and I know its a fine point, but an important one nonetheless. Much of what we learn from tracking coyotes in general may not help us much in taking a specific coyote thats giving us problems.

"I still believe that there are some coyotes- for whatever reason- that will not work a "normal" set...."

I guess it depends on your idea of "normal."

In my first post I agreed that some coyotes may refuse to work sets with commercial/compounded lures. But I dont believe there is a coyotes walking that cant be taken in a "dirthole" made in the right place with a natural bait.

I dont believe there is a coyote that cant be caught with a well blended flat set made in the right place, with a fresh dropping or pure urine from one animal.

To me these are both "normal" sets. Though obviously they may not be high production furtrapping sets.

Your question.......To be honest I cant recall. I do remember catching coyotes at that damn, but this was some years ago and not sure if these were before or after the incident mentioned. In hindsight, I really dont think it was due to my shortcoming at all. I'll bet I was in their "core" area! ;D

Give ya another story......A few years ago we had a trapper who was having a tough time coming up with a particular sheep killing coyote. I was asked to go out and matbe help him out. Give another perspective so to speak.

We did some looking around and I picked a little swale, and made a real natural looking dirthole in a bank where some rodents were digging. Two days later there was a large hail storm which sprung the trap. The trapper, being of the lazy sort did not reset my trap when he saw it. Just drove by.

Well the sheep are still dying, and a few days later his new supervisor (who had NEVER set a trap in his life) was riding along with him for a couple days when they came to this set. The trapper suggested that the supervisor reset my trap.....you know what happened.....

The next morning there sat the old snagled tooth sheep killer!!!!!

sigh........

My big shot at fame down the dumper! I could have been a hero. The legend of campfire tales for years to come.....Instead, we have a desk jocky supervisor at the meetings saying "shoot, there aint nothing to this coyote trapping!!!"

I know exactly how Charlie Brown feels in that instant when that little bitch Sally jerks the ball away! lol

[trappnman]

"whys everyone always pickin' ona me...?"

JC once told me that he didn't like trapping coyotes with lure much anymore...it was just too easy.

the point to the story was simply this- a heck of a lot of coyotes COULD be taken on pure blind sets.

I was at Neb a couple of years ago, and a young man in his 20s stopped and bought some lure. It was his first bottle of lure he had ever bought, and he had been trapping coyotes at his dads and grandpas farm for a few years. Had caught 34 if I recall right- all in blind sets on cattle trails the fall before.

I was really hoping to run into him last year to hear his experiences with lure.

__________________________________________

So yes, you are right- I do have certain mindset when I trap yotes- not so much a fur trappers one, more of a methods type.

Coyote trapping to me is fun. I could catch coon easier and sell for more $$$$. So- since it is fun- I love lures. I love MAKING them come to my place- at MY time. Do what I want them to do.

Make sense?

I DON'T make blind sets.. I DON'T make trail sets...

I HAVE...I CAN....but I don't much.

perhaps I should more- make 10% or so of my sets pure blind sets...... snaring with footholds....

[Edge]

**that little bitch Sally jerks the ball away!**

That would be Lucy.If memory serves,Sally was the red headed girl Charlie was in love with.


ANYhoo.......when you are talking a natural bait;exactly what you talkin bout?Chunk of beaver?Chunk of grounhog?Taint,no taint?

Reason I ask is that I had a little help from a meat bait this year ;I expected it to work as a set booster,but it worked equally well in new sets.Very mild taint.

Edge

[3n]

Edge your right Lucy is the little bitch..but Sally is Charlie Brown's little sister ;D

[Edge]

**but Sally is Charlie Brown's little sister **

Ouch,Man.........you be right.........thats what I get for reading the cliff notes version of Peanuts..........LMAO!!

Edge

[ChrisM]

Lucy, Sally, they're all the same, ya cant trust any of em!

Edge, to me natural is whatever I can get along the line. Out here I use a lot of prairie dog but have also used snake, birds, gopher etc.. I just use em whole. Not ground and tainted or anything like that. Though I'll bet if you'd collect, gut, chunk and perserve some PD's either fresh or with a slight taint it would be very effective and much handier to haul.

"a heck of a lot of coyotes COULD be taken on pure blind sets."

Absolutly right. Especially in livestock country where ya have all the good trails.

Back to Charlie, maybe Edge is right! I always did think there was something strange about his relationship with the Sally.

[3n]

I always did think there was something strange about his relationship with the Sally.

Ya, well maybe your right

[Edge]

Thanks,Chris,I had been planning on savong some adc carcasses for just that purpose;gonna freeze em in the hair and use em whole or just chunked up;no bells or whistles.

Edge

PS...Not his *sister* man.........say it aint so.......

[trappincoyotes39]

I don't think "normal" has much to do with catching a coyote causing you problems, it is keeping things natural that is the key and by keeping things natural you can catch any coyote on the face of the earth.
Coyotes can not fear a trap because they have no notion of what a trap is, they do see things out of place and alot of guys make out of place sets, to compensate they use some exotic lure potion, that will trigger something in the coyote to come up for a closer smell, most of the time these are younger age class coyotes, that have had little if any negative past with the set type,look or smell.
I look at a flat set or hole set punched into sod ground, and the only bare spot is where the trap is, coupled with the exotic odor, first thing will be the response of caution from alot of coyotes. Now take that hole set and make it on a p dog town and better it with pd as bait and a shot of coyote urine with a well blended trap, and you have something that triggers first a postive experiance for about any coyotes, why? because it is in a natural setting with a natural attractor found in the area. The coyote is accustomed to seeing a p dog hole and the smell of p dog comming from it, add to the hole some souped up perfume type lure and that will be one that will cause a trigger to the coyote to be cautious, they have never been accustomed to that smell comming from a p dog hole, in all there short life.
Or just add a trap and a turd with a shot of gland lure/urine on it, by the hole no bait and again you have something that coyotes has seen many times before, that of scent marking a dog town, they will approach with less caution because it is something they have seen- smelled before with out a negative happing to them.
Normal means many things to many people, as Chris stated normal can't be defined excpet by each and everyone of us. I don't make what I call "eye sore" sets I want them to blend into the surroundings as best as I can get them, I found through the years less refusals and less skitish coyotes by going AL' natural for the most part.