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Post by RedRockTrapper on Sept 7, 2004 20:41:34 GMT -6
Just wondering how many canine trappers find and use the territorial bondarys to increase your cacth.It is proven through reseach that canines respond to smells and visauls more readily at there boundarys than other parts of their territory. RedRockTrapper
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Post by 3n on Sept 7, 2004 21:16:02 GMT -6
I never Know when I'm on the edge of a territory..I read a study that said kick-backs were more frequent along periphery (74%)..so I guess if you find a location with alot of kickbacks your chances of bein on the edge are pretty good..heck I don't know.
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Post by Edge on Sept 7, 2004 21:23:16 GMT -6
Not to devalue this line of thinking,but in my country,by the time I can figure out core/fringe areas of territory;I have usually cleaned it out and am on my way. By no means do I mean to imply I get every yote,or even close;I'm talking fur here. There are so many studies out on coyotes(Logan)that is stifling;great stuff to read,but its practical application to the trapline eludes me.i catch yotes cuz they are there,when I think they are there.
To sorta answer your question,if you stick to good locations,edges,funnels,crop changes,etc,I think you neednt worry about whether or not you are in fringe or core areas.
Edge
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Post by RedRockTrapper on Sept 7, 2004 22:13:02 GMT -6
Just look at this one step futher , we all have a spot that take lots of coyotes , Why? Is just the terrain or the amount of prey in that area. What draws the coyotes to that practicular location more than others. I beleive that in many cases we are on that territorial boundary and dont even know it. Like Trappnman said in the Coyote Box [/quote] I have one farm (my best location) where I take from 11-15 coyotes a season- spread out over a 6 week period. I beleive if we spent more time Howling and studying during the preaseason we could trap more coyotes.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 8, 2004 5:49:02 GMT -6
I have the opposite view on the studies such as Logan or collaring studies- I think they provide tons of practical applications to a trapline. THe two most pertinent? 1) the study on reactions to lure ingriedients- excellent! 2) the study on reactions to lures/visuals whether in core or fringe territory. One fact that I got from Logan that I never knew- the large % of NON territorial coyotes. But going back to territorial ranges- for me, just trapping an area for 15 years shows me to a large degree the territories. Tracking in winter shows who goes where. What little group of farms has coyotes- what ones are barren. Denning locations. Farmers sightings. All in all, I got a pretty good practical idea of what areas different family groups call home. I might know my territory better then most. I drive the same roads and walk the same fields for all 4 seasons a year- fall and winter trapping, spring and all summer gopher trapping. But- thanks to my collaring program- and Logan...I began to think "outside the box" a little...and think about where I caught coyotes. Most of the collaring was done on my fur line. That is, I set up, and then they came along with me and collared. We found 2 things- some areas would give us 1-2 coyotes and some areas would get us many more. This same pattern I could see extended into my entire season...that is- some locations produced a couple- some many more. And then we noticed an interesting thing- that the coyotes collared in the 1-2 locations- could just about always be found around the capture location.... but the coyotes collared at the hot spots- were all in different areas- scattered from the hub... Now add in the Logan study.... and it made sense. Our 1-2 locations were HOME ranges. Our multiple locations were TRANSITIONAL areas. For several years- I always thought of my hotspots as social locations, and it a way that what they are. Now, how is this practical? Well, knowing now WHY the hotspots are hotspots...what did they have in common? Well, all of my real hotspots have 3 things i ncommon 1) have a prominent feature- a knob or an isolated pond 2) have extended travel lanes with the feature in the middle 3) not close to heavy cover Knowing this, while I still set up those good looking coyote locations and take my 1-3 coyotes from them, I am trying to choose locations that have the potential to be non core transicental areas. Aren't these just travel routes? Well yes, but more than that- they are.... lets say interstate routes rather than intrastate. And Logan has proven the old adage "A traveling coyote is easier to catch than a local yokel". That a local coyote reacts much differently to lures and visuals in his core area (defined as that area where he spends at least 60% of his time) then when he is outside that area. One other thing on territorial boundaries. We found in our study here, that 1 2 lane blacktop road was a major territorial boundary. That is- never was a coyote captured on one side found on the other...with 1 exception. A paired female, after her mate was killed (we had both collared) did cross the road and pair up with another on that side. This plain jane road, like every other the coyotes crossed at will, was for whatever reason a boundary. I think about that quite often...trying to undersand WHY .....maybe that answer will be my Holy Grail to understanding coyote behavior....
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Post by coyoteman37 on Sept 8, 2004 5:53:08 GMT -6
the bad thing is if you howl to often they will never answer when you need them . If your wondering why is this farm better look outside the box at the farm.I questioned every location a few years ago. forget it find sign and gang set it. but different locations should be set different.
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Post by Ridgerunner on Sept 8, 2004 8:02:25 GMT -6
Tman: That is one excellent post! Yes indeed, I find the "travelers"to be far more catchable than the "homebodies". Also, the prominent feature, and "interstate" concept is a pearl of wisdom. In big woods, almost any stand out feature is likely to be a good location. Hope I don't come off as a lickspittle here guys, but I think Steve hit this one right on the ol' snotbox. To address the territorial boundry issue, I find that the travel areas from the "core" create a funnel, and we all will do well to set 'er up. "Ridge"
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Post by bobwendt on Sept 8, 2004 8:43:42 GMT -6
well, coyote 37 and I do agree on one thing, tracks and turds dictate where to set. I don`t believe "territories" mean squat in the winter when coyotes are moving en mass in all directions daily, sometimes hundreds of miles. In summer adc when there are distinct territories and "BASICALLY" all are home bodies, I want right on top of their exact location, not the fringe where they only re-mark once every 1-3 weeks after a strong front. I believe same as edge, I read all the studies but rely on my many years of field experience over a researchers academic conclusions. When I started summer trapping hard, about 18 years ago, it didn`t take me long (about 3 runs) to learn I would starve to death if I operated summer traplines the same as winter traplines for fur. I always 1/2 joke and 1/2 serious said if you don`t see the coyote run off when you go to set (summer work), then you are not close enough.
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Post by Edge on Sept 8, 2004 9:48:16 GMT -6
Well,Bob,I was gonna start copying and pasting,but this is easier.
Amen.
My time is best spent in the puckies,learning what the coyotes teach me(Charlie Dobbins).While I admire those that take the time to read all the studies,I cannot,nor would I even if I had the tme.If reading the studies,and applying the knowledge is working for people,super great;my opinion on what works for me has not changed.
Edge
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Post by mattjones298 on Sept 8, 2004 12:05:09 GMT -6
all that`s to deep for me.
i just set good locations...well locations that (look) good to me. if i don`t find a turd or track i still set it. one thing that a veteran canine trapper has over a guy just starting out is the (i`ve been there before) (sixth sense) type deal kicks in. the more canines you catch the better a man gets at it. before long a man is not getting out and looking for tracks, he takes one look at the area and then drives like hell to the spot he picks and starts chunking traps out..or i do anyway
my turd and track looking is a pre-season thing or not at all
matt
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Post by bobwendt on Sept 8, 2004 12:23:57 GMT -6
matt, I think it is importatnt to distinguish that your "good location, 6th sense" method is great for fall winter fur trapping, but near worthless in the summer. Summer coyote work you can set all the greatest locations in the world and nary a coyote. Summer you have to find them via howling or direct tracks and turds and set right on top of the son of a guns. Even 1/4 mile off and they won`t bother to come see you. I remember years ago a good coyote trapper we all know, jerry joe from southern indiana told me he real quick found out summer trapping coyotes was not worth his time ,due to low success rate. Jerry is a very accomplished winter trapper but did not understand the "great location" deal won`t cut it in the summer. A lot of these posts get confusing as we have good and great winter trappers and good and great summer trappers both posting conflicting stuff. In fact, both are right ,depending on the time of the year.
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Post by coyoteman37 on Sept 8, 2004 12:48:22 GMT -6
I end up doing alot of cold rolling due to a almost 6 month deer season. rember this tracks,turds or bald spots. any combination usually will result in a return visit which should equal a caught yote.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 8, 2004 13:35:11 GMT -6
"Amen"?
Amen to be against research? Ok.
I don`t believe "territories" mean squat in the winter [when coyotes are moving en mass in all directions daily, sometimes hundreds of miles.
Exact opposite is true here. Coyotes pull back into their territories.
I'm not dicounting field observations- I just think a man is missing the boat if he doesn't learn from research.
Unless of ocurse you are one of those rare trappers that catches every coyote that comes within 50 feet of the set. Unfortunately, I'm not at that skill level yet- so I'll take any advantage.
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Post by bobwendt on Sept 8, 2004 13:43:07 GMT -6
in indiana and wyoming and kansas it is the reverse, they pull in during the summer i.e. pup rearing time, and expand further out in the late fall winter times. Early fall shows the same tight family groups. Migration doesn`t get into full roll till jan and peaks in feb, after all fur trapping is done. Even an old mated long term unmolested adult pair move about then, everyone trying to move up the latter to the better home ranges and denning sites that are freshly opened up by fall/winter mortality. That is why you can remove all the coyotes from an area and come next season , those "hot" areas are always hot. I avidly read all research, but extrapolate that information into practicality of trapping and discard the technical information that does not extrapolate over to increased harvest.
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Post by DaveLyons on Sept 8, 2004 14:33:06 GMT -6
Very interesting stuff here.
I learned a few things from the studies.
But there is one thing I learned by reading O'Gormans books. In the fall/winter trap like heck and leave. Then in a month go back. And there will be more coyotes again.
I did this with snaring in Jan. and Feb. but I only left for two weeks and then hit it hard again.
I caught just a lot of coyotes the first time around and then left and two weeks later I hit it again. There weren't as many coyotes that time but I did take 3 more sets of breeding pairs that week off one location. And less then one mile down the road took another 3 pairs. I don't know were they came from because just before deer season there was nothing left there. But I can tell you both location have a drainage system that goes to a large watershed which I know the coyote use.
Dave
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Post by Edge on Sept 8, 2004 14:47:10 GMT -6
**Amen to be against research? Ok.**
You can be aginst research if you choose,thasts your choice.But dont put those words in my mouth.
If those five words are what you got from Bob's post,perhaps a re-read would be in order.
Edge
IF there is some problem with me not agreeing to eveerything said on this board;re the logan studies,let me know and I'll let my opinion slide. seems every time I dont bow to the Logan Gods I get a big effing hassle.
I dont give a rats a$$ who uses the research or for what,mayeb thats the best take for everyone to follow.
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Post by mattjones298 on Sept 8, 2004 15:05:39 GMT -6
don`t get me wrong steve i love reading the studys and i learn alot from them and i owe you for the info so thanks.
but i may not be smart enough to incorperate the knowledge into dead coyotes or my style of coyote trapping. it kinda falls into the if it aint broke dont fix it area.
just like with bob, the knowledge he has on summer coyote and fox is worthless on the fur trapline.
anyway, i gotta go try and find a coon trap for the ohio show
matt
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Post by trappnman on Sept 8, 2004 18:19:34 GMT -6
"IF there is some problem with me not agreeing to eveerything said on this board;re the logan studies,let me know and I'll let my opinion slide. seems every time I dont bow to the Logan Gods I get a big effing hassle."
If you got that out of my post- better reread it,
I guess I really don't see where giving a different opinion than you is "a big effing hassle". Does the debate stop after 1 post?
Anyone doesn't want to read and make use of the available research- don't.
I look at it like this- I don't say disposibles are worthless, are junk. Because I don't know. I have never used them. So I say- I have never used them. I don't give my opinion they are worthless because I don't know.
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Post by bobwendt on Sept 8, 2004 18:50:07 GMT -6
hey chill boys! You all are getting into my rep. as the baddest dude in town. Seriously, I enjoy hearing all sides. Some I agree with , some not. One thing I have learned from 3 years dicking around on trapper web sites is never get a hemrrhoid over anything of an arguable nature. Some folks are like me and post things very bluntly and give different impressions and meanings than the same words around a campfire. Without facial and hand gestures and tone of voice and body posture, lots of typed puter stuff comes out not meaning what the guy typed.
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Post by trappnman on Sept 8, 2004 19:29:46 GMT -6
"One thing I have learned from 3 years dicking around on trapper web sites is never get a hemrrhoid over anything of an arguable nature."
ain't that the truth- opinions still are opinions...
you still the baddest Bob.....
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