|
Post by k9 on Sept 9, 2004 20:25:09 GMT -6
Good points trappncoyotes and I know that there are times when M-44's fail. I was actually talking about the old days of drop baits, when they would dump buckets of it out of planes and poison horse carcasses, etc.
The theory was that some of those baits would age and get rained on, and that the coyote would then pick them up and get sick on the weaker poison, and would thus avoid baits in the future, and survive poisoning efforts. I can't see how any of those guys ever followed up on that to know it to be true, and I assume it is only theory. An M-44 at least is being checked and in snow a guy can figure out what is going on. Don't know how a guy would do that with baits dropped out of a low flying plane.
Interesting comments on canine behavior. I will have to ponder it a bit.
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Sept 9, 2004 20:42:46 GMT -6
k9, correction on m44s. They are commonly set and never cked. I find them corroded so bad they won`t go off, can`t be beat off even, all over the wyoming prairie. Somewhere up somebody quoted vern dorn "do it right the first time" I feel that is the key, just do it right and try to keep poo-dinkers out of serious coyote control efforts where every coyote must be taken with little or no human failure.
|
|
|
Post by k9 on Sept 10, 2004 6:15:01 GMT -6
"poodinkers"
Now that's funny. I'm going to add that one to my vocabulary.
|
|
|
Post by 3n on Sept 10, 2004 6:41:56 GMT -6
M-44 have guidelines under the EPA...permission by landowner,monthly reports must be turned in ,location of all M-44's,regular checks,warning signs..I don't think a G-man or private applicator would risk a hefty fine or losing his job by setting an M-44 and never checking it.
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Sept 10, 2004 6:58:55 GMT -6
3n, of course that is protocol but seldom followed in the vast private holdings in wyoming. I could likewise show you rotted coyotes in untended fence snares (long term, months to years) and other game, like kit fox around m44s that never get on reports. The reports only reflect what the guy filling the reports out puts on them. I am not chastizing or passing judgement on anyone, just reporting how it is in the real world. Personally I have no problem with dead animals as once dead they are dead and no issue unless seen by folks that have no business seeing such things ,and try to make an issue of it for other agendas. But indeed, any rancher can get certification merely by attending a day course. M44`s are falling out of fashion with many gmen as there are other less hassle free methods. Arial gunning and calling, followed by snaring, then m44`s and lastly trapping. Denning seems to be a lost art with many, yet a few are experts still. The most abuse of m44s as far as never cking for long periods, or never at all is from the private secter, usually the rancher himself or untrained hired hands. M44s, like traps or any other tool, are only as good as the individual using them. And you can`t legislate ethics any more than legislating away racism.
|
|
|
Post by bubcat on Sept 10, 2004 10:30:02 GMT -6
"Can of Worms" is a good topic for this one! Real interesting reading. Looking back, I'm going to side a bit with the underdog here for a minute.
Case in point, When I establish my network of skidoo trails, I'll confidence bait the trails for two weeks. Coyotes start using them like mad. They seem to regard the sound of my snowmachine as a dinner bell. When they here it at this time, they aren't long behind.
Once I have good active trails going, I intro blind sets to the trail. The first few days are productive.
Within one week,I've got coyotes walking the trail, nervous, who will just leap into the air for no apparent reason (crust broke under foot?) And the sound of a snow machine, which used to bring them running, will shut the trail down to coyote traffic. They walk along side the trails, if at all.
Then I leave for a week or so. Come back with no traps on fresh snow, and confidence bait the same area again, till I see it as back to normal, it takes another few weeks, and make another pass.
If the coyotes can learn nothing, if they are that stupid, why do they suddenly quit using the nice trail they like so much? Why do they up and leave? But only after I start killing some of them? And why is it, that sets that worked well to start with, go bust in short order? At what point here did I turn into a Poo Dink Trapper? ;D
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Sept 10, 2004 14:49:47 GMT -6
he he, yooz suppose to catch them all the first pass and then get the few edjamakated ones on the second pass. The third pass is for the ones migrated in that were never their when you were there, you know , the there after routine. They weren`t there for what you there for so they were there after you left.
|
|
|
Post by k9 on Sept 12, 2004 6:40:36 GMT -6
I'll never forget one time a fella stopped me at a local store and was talking to me about squirrel hunting. He told me about the timber he likes to hunt, and it is a small timber, about 80 acres, but good hickory, oak etc trees all through it so lot's of squirrels.
So this guy says the weekend before he got six in one day. Then he hunted one weekday and got four. Then on the day he was talking with me, he had been out and gotten only two out of that same timber.
Anyway he was wanting me to know how smart those squirrels had gotten out there, because he was only able to kill two that day.
I explained to him that I did not think the squirrels out there were getting smart, I just thought they were getting dead.
But at least in your case Bubcat you have the tracks and you know the coyotes are there.
|
|
|
Post by jsevering on Sept 12, 2004 8:25:07 GMT -6
Thats a truthfull, common sence senerio K9, but we all arnt lucky enough to have thousands of connected acres with basicaly free access.
Some areas you only get a 100 acre patch in the middle of those thousands and have to drive passing up many prime funnels, ect., coyotes arnt squirrels and some boxes may be packed differently in different political arenas.
I guess thats why some of us boys in the east will always be Poo Dink trappers and try to figure out or question in our minds the little factors that cause set burn out or avoidance.
Not posting to be arguementative, I agree with the jist of what you said and others, just pointing out there are some geological differences envolved....jim
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Sept 12, 2004 9:01:14 GMT -6
I`ll have to admit, it is a lot easier to trap out the coyotes and in fact know when you have done so when you basically have unlimited access to a million contiguous acres in the west. Well, that and the no mud or rain- essentially-8-13" annually and that mostly as snow. That is why I no longer seriously trap in the east. Due to laws and politics and weather it is strictly a hobby operation for me when east of the big river. I save my steam for when I am in the west where a guy can really trap and strut his stuff.
|
|
|
Post by k9 on Sept 12, 2004 9:56:23 GMT -6
You are right Jsevering and Bob. I am limited here in Iowa, with all the small farms and sections, etc. However the hunting pressure does tend to keep the coyotes amoving as hardly anything here goes without being pushed by some sort of hunter.
If not for family commitments, I would in a heartbeat pickup and move to a western state. I like that area and those people. I by no means consider Jsevering, Bubcat, or anyone a poo-dinker. I do however, know a few guys around here well enough to consider them to be poo-dinkers.
My squirrel hunting acquaintance just fell victim to what happens to a lot of trappers. He just was giving those squirrels credit for getting a whole lot smarter, while in fact they were just getting a whole lot fewer.
When numbers of squirrels or coyotes gets fewer and fewer, I would submit to you that those that are left, do not feel as competitive or pressured, when more food is available to them, as when numbers are higher.
|
|
|
Post by bubcat on Sept 13, 2004 14:38:58 GMT -6
But Bob; "he he, yooz suppose to catch them all the first pass and then get the few edjamakated ones on the second pass..." If all coyotes are dumber than dirt, what difference does it make if I do/or don't wipe em out first pass? These survivors ain't been pinched. They just been seeing their buddies getting bit by all the black metal crawdads that jump up out of the trail? That shouldn't matter, if they're entirely stupid...
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Sept 13, 2004 16:14:15 GMT -6
no no, they just doesn`t all show up at the same time unless you traps them at the den in summer.
|
|
|
Post by bubcat on Sept 13, 2004 19:56:16 GMT -6
Bob; Ypu're talking about a dispersal pattern, that doesn't particularly exist here in the White Mountains.
This is an excerpt from the NH fish and Game fact sheet;
Within a year some pups will disperse long distances to find their own territories, while other offspring may remain with their parents and form a small pack.
WITHIN A YEAR.... SOME.. DISPERSE... SOME... REMAIN
they say, and I agree. I don't see major dispersal patterns like most other people claim, in the fall. IF NH coyotes disperse at all, It's generally more common about breeding time., or the following Spring. For the most part, these coyotes work as a team.
So, typically, when you catch a coyote here, it's a spectator sport. And the one that don't get toggled up, seems all the wizer from the experience.
And you can make multiple catches here early on, but it seems to slow down as you run out of stock, and they also seem to catch on quick to any given technique. Those that live, seem to learn.
If you pound my area 3 weeks, with a barage of strictly dirt holes, you'll come out of the gate good, and this will taper off. and after the third week, 6 mound sets with a new lure, will out catch those same 50 dirt holes that were working so well just a few weeks before, and on it goes.
If you take ten square miles of this ground, with the notion that you're gonna wipe em out with strictly one set type, one lure, you might as well change your plates over, and go register to vote, You're going to be calling this home for a spell. It ain't gonna happen. ;D
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Sept 13, 2004 20:58:58 GMT -6
bub, what you are seeing as far as dispersal is the same everywhere. Canine dispersal doesn`t even get going good till late dec at the earliest, here there anywhere. Here, tho , the family seems to not all be at the same place at the same time, even before dispersal. They all seem to have their own mini territories within the one large family territory. Often 2 or even 3 will buddy up, thus the doubles and triples. In mid summer we set 6 as theyare truly ALL togather then, fall breaking into these mini territories with in the big territory. Get into jan/feb- then we see the true migration of singles and pairs and rarely 3`s , coyotes from different bunchs some times miles or counties or states away , coming thru- staying if the area is empty of resident canines.
|
|
|
Post by trappnman on Sept 13, 2004 21:55:52 GMT -6
All I will say is this...One day- I feel like the Greatest Coyote Trapper that ever lived- NO ONE is better at yotes than ME!
A week later- I come to the conclusion I am the worst coyote traper that ever lived.....
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Sept 14, 2004 4:37:58 GMT -6
tman, reminds of a saying I heard from tom krouse a couple , well several, ok lots of, years ago. In the sheep country of wyoming, "every trapper is a hero and bum, depending on which day he catches the offending coyote- or fails too." I been both places- the loved hero, and conversly, the worthless mooching bum.
|
|
|
Post by bubcat on Sept 14, 2004 4:42:01 GMT -6
Steve; Sounds like you might have a case of trapper poo dink . ;D
You better check with Doctor Bob, and get yourself a perscription!
Jan/Feb migration.. Yep. That's when mother nature resupplies these hills with coyotes. Trapping coyotes here is like trying to create a dry spot in the middle of a puddle.
|
|
|
Post by jsevering on Sept 14, 2004 5:54:23 GMT -6
Think the very nature of the way many are forced to aproach any type of control work in the east reduces them to poo dink trappers if they want to be or not.
nothing worse than taking a pup or two and mabye two male juveniles, having the bitch and other pups relocate.
taking the mans money per head and set up fee for the week, looking him in the eye and having to tell him hes still got a possible problem, but the bitch and remaining pups appeared to relocate.
Im guilty of that and know or feel that, that is poo dinking, but Im bound to that mans back forty.
I like reading Doc wendts opinions and others and agree no room for poo dinking in a serious bigger scale control operation such as trapping out west can provide if you have the right contacts and actual ability to perform the task.
It is a interesting pot when you mix the variables of east, west and in between looking for common threads that can help you through out.......jim
|
|
|
Post by bobwendt on Sept 14, 2004 6:15:34 GMT -6
don`t feel too bad jim, I`m a poo dinker in the east for the same reasons you are. We do our part and know our business , but between the mud and no access where we need to be we are bonafid poo dinked by factors out of our control.
|
|